The self

Obviously. Some have said as much, and others imply it by parroting K.

Is it possible that they have indeed changed in this way?

We don’t know if it’s possible that anyone has “changed in this way”, though many of us believe K underwent this change, and many more believe they have, too.

If some people here haven’t changed in the way K did but believe they have, where does that leave us?

It leaves us allowing for the possibility that K underwent this change (since we really don’t know), and trying to find out what exactly he was trying to get across to his audience. We’re interested in why he spent his life doing what he did because, if he was not delusional, his teaching is not to be ignored or dismissed.

But those who think they’ve undergone this change, and those who summarily accept everything K said as true, not questioning or finding out for themselves, I feel should have their own group.

What is all this judging about? You have an insight and you share it here. If it’s of interest great, if not move on. What is your “degree of certainty” based on? There may some excitement in the relating of it and that bothers you so move on. I don’t ‘get it’.

A lot of the so-called insights shared here are just opinions, beliefs

That is your opinion. That is your belief. So ignore what you call “preachy” and whatever else you don’t approve of and read what you do approve of and what you feel is appropriate to post.

Another option is to flag the post and give your reason as ‘too preachy’, ‘delusions of grandeur ‘ etc and see if the admin. agrees.

Is Interaction a positive?
I mean : is it a good thing that we interact with each other (on this forum, by discussing, sharing our ideas and conclusions - inquiring into them)? Is Interaction the goal?

I think so. And I encourage you to try and enlighten me, if you see some problem with my stated opinion. I like to drop as many silly, harmful, false beliefs as possible - so thank you in advance.

If interaction and inquiry is part of our “raison d’etre” here - I must admit that there are some folk that I have not quite figured out how to interact with. Or should I say : I don’t feel able to talk about anything with everybody. I have a Psychological image of you when I talk to you, and my biases are usually confirmed (by myself of course :crazy_face:)

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When you take power my lord, we shall see to it! :sunglasses:

I lived a few years at Brockwood Park, and then at the Krishnamurti Centre for a few more, and it was taken for granted that most of the people coming there to live and work had their own levels of insight, and could share their insights as part of an ongoing inquiry together.

However, it was also understood - like an etiquette - that one ought to be modest about one’s insights, because they come and go; so that if today you have one, tomorrow another will have one, and they kind of feed into the whole nature of being in such a community. But no-one claimed to have total insight - and if they were foolish enough to do so, the community would very quickly see to it that their so-called perfect insight was put to the test!

But here, there are no tests. Someone can claim something (like having perfect insight), and people either go along with it or reject it. The people who believe they have the insight stick together, and those who are either more skeptical or more modest attempt to continue the dialogue among themselves. - And it just leads to division.

So, what would you do to address it? (or have you concluded that we should ignore each other and continue to talk only within our silos of affinity?)

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I feel it is important to help free people from their insights - but more important not to be a jerk.
Trying to force someone to be free, is violence.

This is a 2 edged sword - if we never share our Kensho experiences - they remain special

Not to mention silly.

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I think I/we should be aware of what we’re doing, thinking, saying…that’s my opinion.

And let the devil take the hindmost.

Must we share everything that happens in our lives? Won’t our insights - if they are valid - show themselves in their own time? For sure, if one has made one’s ‘sudden seeing’ into something sacred, and is hoarding it in memory to make oneself feel special, then that is not right. Maybe it is then worth expressing it somehow - in words, in music even - so that it is gone. Because - as you imply - we cannot hold onto insight, it is not a personal possession or personal achievement; and if we try to hold on to what we have seen, then it is already dead. - This is the beginner’s mind, right?

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You suggested blocking, but I don’t see an option for that. This might be a better approach. I’ll try it and see how Dev responds.

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Ahh, “the beginner’s mind.”
You are really a piece of work James. I think I’m finished here. Good luck to you. Good luck to the forum.

Yes the framing of ‘affliction’ in terms of the three times feels Krishnamurtian.

I thought Buddhists believed suffering was due to the mind’s ignorance about how things really work, the true nature of self/world/reality?

I think we can share insights and still be modest, can’t we? The problem is we all feel the need, from time to time, to show off our learning and demonstrate to others here that we have a good understanding of the teachings. I don’t see insight as a problem, but rather the need to show that we have it. As I see it, it is the “I know but you don’t know” approach which is destructive and excludes any possibility of sharing as equals.

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For someone who usually seems very reasonable, I find these outbursts rather odd.

Earlier on this thread you called me ‘vile’ and ‘odious’ because I asked whether psychological suffering completely ends with the ending of the self.

Not that I am a Buddhist, but any Buddhist would have asked this question, given that nirvana is understood by them to mean both the cessation of suffering as well as the cessation of self - what K appears to have intended by his use of the phrase total insight. K said that without this ending of psychological suffering there can be no compassion.

What is the issue here? The phrase is a well-known Zen aphorism, but I was replying to a post that included a Zen word (kensho - meaning sudden insight, or partial insight, seeing into the essence, etc), and it seemed appropriate in that context.

Are you suggesting that having a beginner’s mind is trivial? K constantly talked about the need to begin each enquiry anew, as though beginning afresh - about the need to move on from yesterday’s insights (no matter how rich or significant they were) so as to meet the new situation as it presents itself now. - What’s wrong with that?

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I am conscious that these Buddhist asides may feel off-topic for other participants, so I will try be as brief as I can (without reducing the complexity of the issue!), and then leave the matter as it is.

Remember that there is no such thing as a single, catholic, monolithic ‘Buddhism’. There are many different Buddhisms, many forms of Buddhism, which have existed alongside each other from the earliest time-period. Indeed, one needs to understand somewhat the historical context of the time of the Buddha to see why these different interpretations took hold.

In the centuries before the Buddha was born Vedic culture was concentrated in the north west, in a region called Kuru-Pancala, while the central Gangetic culture to the east (which some historians have called Greater Magadha) remained relatively independent. There was some cross-over between the two cultures, but their relative independence is important to be aware of.

This Greater Magadha region was responsible for producing Jainism and Buddhism. For early Jains, all physical and mental activity involved wrong-doing or harm of some kind, and so they projected absolute non-activity (physically and mentally) as the highest goal of their religious life (which sometimes included deliberate starvation, resulting in death).

When Buddhism appeared it continued to have an ongoing correspondence and dispute with these ideas. Buddhism necessarily refined the Jain outlook, rejected its exaggeratedly ‘physicalist’ understanding of harmful action, and replaced it with an emphasis instead on our psychological intentions. For Buddhists, harmful actions were to be dissolved through a combination of meditative states, moral intentions, and correct insight into the nature of reality.

However, despite the Buddha’s clear rejection of these pre-Buddhist ascetic practices, some Buddhist scriptures continued to accommodate many of these ideas, and so the more ‘physicalist’ interpretation of harmful action remained as a background in the development of mainstream Buddhist culture.

There was also the issue of what the Buddha meant by his insight into the chain of dependent causation (sometimes called ‘dependent-origination’) - a doctrine that would have a long evolution in Buddhist philosophy. There is no space to go into it here, but some early Buddhists apparently believed this chain of causes (leading to suffering) began first of all with sensual desire, thirst (in Pali, tanha); while others believed it began with avijja (Sanskrit avidya), meaning cognitive ignorance. Because the Pali scriptures (together with the monastic rules codified for monks and nuns) contain both views - sometimes emphasising the evils of sense desire, sometimes pointing to the need for cognitive insight - Buddhist culture absorbed them both and developed each one accordingly.

Indeed, some scholars have argued that the difference which gradually arose between two different forms of Buddhist meditation - samatha (calming) and vipassana (insight), which became (and still is) a big issue in Buddhist cultures - was a direct consequence of this hermeneutical tension in the Pali canon:

i.e. between the idea that suffering is caused by sensual desire, or by cognitive ignorance. The latter is supposed to be cured by vipassana (insight) meditation, while the former is cured by samatha (calming) meditation. So it is an ongoing point of dispute in Buddhist thinking.

I thought the 12 links began with avidya, and that avidya gave rise to tanha, seven steps downstream. I find the notion that there is tanha without mind odd, it would seem to mean there is something in the sensory organs themselves that ignites desire.

Hi Dan. I don’t think I’ve ever been “bothered” by someone feeling excited about relating an insight on this forum. Not that I’m aware of anyway. The “degree of certainty” issue is when someone makes a categorical statement like, for example, “When there is absolute perception, the self disappears.” For the life of me, I can’t see how someone can write this without having actually experienced it themselves. How can anyone be sure of this? However, I don’t think we’re going to understand each other here. Is there some kind of miscommunication that’s causing this?

Yes, the 12 step chain became standard in Abhidharma Buddhism (belonging to the period - many years after the death of the Buddha - during which Buddhist commentators began to seek an overall cohesive framework for the many, often contradictory, elements they found in the original scriptural material). However, there are various formulations of this causal chain in the existing canon, meaning that this agreement on 12 links rightly belongs to this later period of scriptural consolidation, and was not originally mandatory.

Other formulations in the Pali scriptures include, for example, those beginning with willing, with the senses, with feelings, and so on - and different Buddhists laid different emphases on which links to give their proper attention. So, for example, one well know formulation in the Samyutta Nikaya (12.43), when inquiring into the cause of suffering, states that:

Dependent on the eye and forms arises eye-sentience, the coming together of all three is contact, from contact there is sensation, from sensation thirst. But with the complete cessation and fading away of that thirst, there is the cessation of grasping, from the cessation of grasping there is the cessation of becoming, from the cessation of becoming there is the cessation of birth, from the cessation of birth old-age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, depression and tribulation cease.

So, you see, this puts the emphasis on an affective or sensate cause for suffering.

Whereas the approach taken by Maha Kaccana (who I mentioned previously in relation to K) puts the emphasis instead on cognition (thought), and the lack of awareness (ignorance) of the activity of thought.

For K (and those Buddhists who have adopted a similar approach) it is thought that results in suffering, not the senses or feeling per se. So there is nothing wrong with sensation (in this approach), nothing wrong with aesthetic appreciation, beauty - or what one might call the ‘affective’ or feeling aspects of existence.

According to K - as I understand him - when one sees something beautiful, one’s senses receive the impression (the contact) of the sensual thing (be it a woman or man, a garden or house, etc), and there is a sensation. This sensation might give rise to a feeling in the body of joy, delight, a sense of beauty or appreciation. If we can leave it there, and not carry the sensation over into memory and thought, then there is no problem with the sensuous perception of a beautiful thing - and so no cause for suffering.

Some Buddhists will accept this (as I pointed out), but the majority probably (at least those living in traditional conservative monastic culture) will not - which is why there is such a negative relationship with the senses in traditional monastic life (where sensual restrictions are often dwelt on in grim detail!).