The dark side

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

Apparently the original meaning (greek) of Apocalypse was : Revelation.

Makes sense, right: A transformative revelation is catastrophic to our old way of being?

Plunging into ones dark side would, in a practical, everyday sense, be to indulge in activities that eventually lead to some pit of despair (or at least some wallowing in discontent, being totally bummed out - like a bad hangover)

Depends how you ‘plunge’? If you dive in and wallow, you’ll probably run into the Abyss. But if you get your spelunking gear on and explore nonindulgently, you might avoid crashing. That said, I think exploring the dark side often involves suffering. It’s dark for a reason!

Indulgence leads necessarily to harm, pain, disgust and ultimately desire (?)

I dunno about ‘necessarily’ but often, for sure. Unless we are able to indulge intelligently?

[rickScott]

@viswanath_ok_gmail_c

So, what’s your understanding

I think it’s a tough call whether to back off (go silent) or forge ahead (go straight to the deep end) when you run into something that you sincerely think-believe-know(?) is not correct or true. People get emotionally attached to their views, they identify with them. When you find flaws in their views, they may interpret it (consciously or unconsciously) as an attack, and react defensively, maybe even offensively, tit for tat. And then all Hell can break loose. On the other hand, remaining silent when you see something you find wrong/untrue limits the scope of your expression and the forum’s field of exploration. I usually choose silence over forging ahead to avoid the stress and the intimacy that comes from ‘duking it out’ with someone.

[macdougdoug]

@rickScott

Depends how you ‘plunge’?

By plunge I mean : allow oneself, no restraint, to do things that you wanna do. No need to have the motive to get to the “dark side” either - but if you do x, and it leads to the bright and wonderful side (whatever that is), it doesn’t count.

@rickScott

Indulgence leads necessarily to harm, pain, disgust and ultimately desire (?)

Unless we are able to indulge intelligently?

Intelligently means not to over indulge; avoidance of indulgence. restraint. Or happily avoid, in the understanding of the complete equation regarding indulgence.

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

By plunge I mean : allow oneself, no restraint, to do things that you wanna do.

That would be a really interesting experiment: Take the path of least resistance. Flow like water.

Intelligently means not to over indulge; avoidance of indulgence.

Indulge means allow yourself to enjoy, take pleasure in. Is it intelligent to avoid enjoyment and pleasure? I hope not, that would make intelligence really boring!

[macdougdoug]

@rickScott

I hope not, that would make intelligence really boring!

Yes this is any normal human’s view - the fear of missing out. Buddhism and K at its simplest is the idea that seeing clearly what desire is about frees us from this fear.

That everything (even joy) is tainted by greed/fear when it is our ground of action, when we don’t see all the implications, when we are ignorant of our blinders, seeing only that I must have what I want.

Why do we have to keep repeating this teaching? Do you think it is incorrect, or that another version is closer to the truth? Do you not get it ? Do you not believe it (because its too simplistic)?

[rickScott]

seeing clearly what desire is about frees us from this fear

Do you think it is incorrect, or that another version is closer to the truth?

I think that it is a useful model for how the mind works. I don’t know how close to the truth it or any other version is. Some versions resonate more for me, some less.

Do you not get it ?

Well you know me, I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten.

Do you not believe it (because its too simplistic)?

I believe it’s a good model. Too simplistic? Maybe a bit too tidy and formulaic for my taste.

[macdougdoug]

@rickScott

I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten.

I could not say which is better or worse.
Obviously cultivating a belief in the way its meant to be believed is a terrible shame.

For us fools, the best we can do I suppose is to beware the beliefs that resonate the most.

[rickScott]

Kill your darlings?

---

[macdougdoug]

Do nothing. Which is simple if we can see that we are confused. (which might not be possible)

See Dunning Kruger effect

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

Do nothing

Is that even possible? Assuming you count mental actions as ‘doing’?

[macdougdoug]

Right, sorry, by “do nothing” I meant don’t bother following your cunning plan (to become wise and free).

Never follow the instructions of a confused fool. Never believe that they have a clear grasp of the issues.

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

don’t bother following your cunning plan (to become wise and free)

I assume you mean: “I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten.” ?

I am unsure why you think that’s my plan to become wise and free. I never said that afaik. Maybe you think that’s what I mean by my tone? I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten because I enjoy doing it, it energizes me, and bears tasty fruit. I post things like that here not to assert something, rather share a view that might resonate, as it did with you.

[viswanath_ok_gmail_c]

@rickScott

I think it’s a tough call whether to back off (go silent) or forge ahead (go straight to the deep end) when you run into something that you sincerely think-believe-know(?) is not correct or true. People get emotionally attached to their views, they identify with them. When you find flaws in their views, they may interpret it (consciously or unconsciously) as an attack, and react defensively, maybe even offensively, tit for tat. And then all Hell can break loose. On the other hand, remaining silent when you see something you find wrong/untrue limits the scope of your expression and the forum’s field of exploration

True. No doubt.

@rickScott

I usually choose silence over forging ahead to avoid the stress and the intimacy that comes from ‘duking it out’ with someone.

Do you think learning is not possible while ‘duking it out’ with someone?

[macdougdoug]

@rickScott

I assume you mean: “I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten.” ?

Nope - I’d already forgotten that was your gameplan.

“The fool should not follow their cunning plan” is just a kind of logical truism

@rickScott

I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten because I enjoy doing it, it energizes me, and bears tasty fruit.

I suppose its best we not address this on a K (or even buddhist) forum?

[viswanath_ok_gmail_c]

@rickScott

I usually choose silence over forging ahead to avoid the stress and the intimacy that comes from ‘duking it out’ with someone.

And say, Viswa is not/will not be stressed out of any forging ahead/go straight to the deep, would you push yourself to your end for learning as Viswa won’t be harmed by any of your words/actions/stress/duking it out?

@rickScott

I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten because I enjoy doing it, it energizes me, and bears tasty fruit

Tasty fruit? How tasty it is?
Or not that tasty to your big family of brothers,sisters,parents,etc.?

[rickScott]

@macdougdoug

I suppose its best we not address this on a K (or even buddhist) forum?

Well we are in the Dark Side thread. “Abandon taboos all ye who enter here?”

[rickScott]

@viswanath_ok_gmail_c

@rickScott

I usually choose silence over forging ahead to avoid the stress and the intimacy that comes from ‘duking it out’ with someone.

And say, Viswa is not/will not be stressed out of any forging ahead/go straight to the deep, would you push yourself to your end for learning as Viswa won’t be harmed by any of your words/actions/stress/duking it out?

Viswa is the type of seeker I would go to the deep end with. My fear wouldn’t be harming Viswa, rather harming myself (i.e. my worldview story).

I cultivate not-getting things in the way they’re meant to be gotten because I enjoy doing it, it energizes me, and bears tasty fruit

Tasty fruit? How tasty it is?

It’s tasty enough to keep me coming back for more.

[rickScott]

@viswanath_ok_gmail_c

@rickScott

I usually choose silence over forging ahead to avoid the stress and the intimacy that comes from ‘duking it out’ with someone.

Do you think learning is not possible while ‘duking it out’ with someone?

I think learning is definitely possible! But duking it out is stressful for me, it takes a toll.