Absolute fact. Until there is ‘self’ - nothing can be captured. If there is no ‘self’ - then everything is captured.
Absolute fact. Until there is ‘self’ - nothing can be captured. If there is no ‘self’ - then everything is captured.
Thought, thinking, is part of matter - a material movement taking place in the brain. So scriptures are part of that movement of matter. Scriptures are merely material thoughts in various (now dead) brains written down on material parchment, which have then to be interpreted (usually centuries later) by the material thoughts in another brain.
It’s a total belief James. That’s what I say from first - “No one knows whether it is only from Humans - scriptures are created”. Humans who wrote scriptures says - “These are words used by messengers/etc…” and said that “the messengers say - it is from Truth”.
Every thoughts come from words. It’s understandable. But what if those words are from Truth - as a treasure who sees the Ignorance?
You are totally in a belief that - Scriptures are illusion & Imaginations. Come out from it. Enquire every thing - and then find “whether it is really Imaginations or not”
Words are not truth Viswa. You are totally in a belief that words in scriptures are something more than words. Come out from it. Enquire into everything - and then find out whether it is really truth or just your own desire to live in illusions.
I Inquired something and continuing in every religions
Until those Inquired - those are not really desires James. It’s entirely different.
Except those guru,deities,etc…, how they describe ‘ignorance’ which is ‘me’ and how K says. It is totally similar to K’s
First I too had this beliefs “Like Why always god/Brahman - God f*** you”. But, while getting to see this - And so I in overwhelming started to totally induce my time in scriptures.
In Tamilnadu - There was a poet - totally Athiest. But once he suffered and started to read scriptures - he became totally theist and changed his name as “Kannadasan” (Devotee of Krishna) - and his words are totally different. He lived a totally different life - not caught in Ignorance - but words are fully about how dwelling in ‘I,desires,etc…’
You may check some of his songs here - translated from Tamil to english phrase by phrase.
It’s only because of “Fake priests” - these scriptures are hated. The ‘Brahman/Truth/god/subtle’ is always present. Those scriptures are ruined by traditional practices. But throwing away them - it is totally different.
Everything is said in words. But false interpretations lead to these conflicted religions. But, as in the meaning of word “religion” is something to “rely upon”. Whoever looked at self and comes out from ‘self’/‘ignorance’ - those scriptures are always “Unimaginable”. It is not bound to Imaginations of Thoughts.
If we don’t rely on K - we cannot understand what he say by caught in ‘self’. Relying is totally setting away the ‘self’ aside.
As a brother - I beg you to the core - once read them. read everything. and then you may come to a conclusion “It is or it is not”.
Viswa - why do you assume that I (and other people here on the forum) have not read any scriptures? Does it matter how many scriptures a person has read?
In the second line of the Yogasutra, it says
“Yoga is the cessation of the fluctuations [the vrttis] of the mind”
meaning that freedom - according to this scripture - occurs when the constant movement of vrtti (thought) ceases.
In the Buddhist Madhupindika Sutta it says:
“what one senses (vedeti) one apperceives (sanjanati), what one apperceives one thinks over (vitakketi), what one thinks over one conceptually proliferates (papanceti), because of which conceptual proliferation, apperception and reckoning (papanca-sanna-sankha) afflict a person, with regard to (all) forms, of the past, future and present.”
meaning that thought is responsible for all our psychological suffering and confusion.
But what has happened? Scriptures also say all kinds of things which have nothing to do with a perception of reality - myths about magic and gods, legends about wise seers and prophets - and so we have taken these scriptures and made them into ridiculous, superstitious belief-systems which have nothing to do with truth.
Thought has created the religions. Thought has created Vishnu and Krishna; thought has created the virgin Mary and the experience of Jesus; and thought has created Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri and Tara.
So we cannot trust what thought has said about truth - even when it sounds correct (as in the passages I quoted from).
When thought comes to an end (if it can), so does scripture, religion, and belief.
James - scriptures cannot end our thoughts (or) ‘me’. I don’t ever question that.
The same is for the teachings.
We have to throw away everything (including scriptures,the teachings) - while looking us. We can’t stand one stand for “Scriptural words” and another stand for “The words in The teachings”.
Everywhere I said - to end the thoughts/me,
But whatever I speaking is after ending sufferings/thoughts/me.
After ending - the senses keep on dragging us - and only for that purpose - Practice is important - and for that “Reading scriptures” is an absolute aid.
To end thought - Nothing helps us. But to control senses - these ‘scriptures’ are way beyond our Imaginations.
When you end your thought - you can see it’s real essence and beauty.
But to end thoughts - Look at you, Look around the world - not scriptures/teachings.
You asked above,
And so - I said - it’s belief. Come out from it. When thought ends - read it.
When thought ends - everyone who reads the scriptures - will feel the beauty of Satan,Shiva,etc… And so I said “Read”. But to end thoughts - it’s absolutely useless. You have to look at yourself - not other persons words - to end thoughts.
But after ending thoughts - You will fall again to ‘me’&thoughts. So on that time - there will be total urge to see - “what is truth?” - and at that time don’t believe “scriptures are useless.”
After ending sufferings/‘me’ - read those - you can feel the BEAUTY IN EVERYTHING.
Viswa, I hope you will not be offended if I point this out - and it’s obviously largely because English is not your first language - but what you write is largely a confusing mess. And I wonder if you do not use this verbal confusion to cover up your own actual confusion?
You seem to be both claiming to be beyond thought, as well as needing to depend on scripture because you have “fallen back” into thought. You seem to be claiming to have ended “sufferings/me”, while at the same time needing to depend on scripture to remind you to control your senses.
To me, this indicates that you are confused, and are using scripture to cover up that confusion. Moreover, you are very unwilling to admit this - probably because the scriptures and beliefs you are so keen on proselytising are giving you some kind of psychological security or nourishment (even though this security is wholly fictitious).
See James. I ended sufferings - But senses and thought is keep on arising. It is Nature. even for K - it is acceptable. In choiceless awareness - thought ends - and it will go on continuously. We cannot say “thought will not arise at all when we end” by looking at me/past. It will arise - but one is choicelessly aware - so it ends at that same moment.
But in case of senses - it is totally different chapter. K hadn’t touched those - as for him (or) in his years - he is not addicted to sensual pleasures - and so he hadn’t touched those. He was secured from those in both Theosophical society and K foundations.
But for us - it is totally different. Senses keep on dragging us - when it sees Ads./etc… even after ‘suffering/thought/me’ ends. K had said ‘Sex’ is beauty - and not offend it. There will be no sufferings too after the act of ‘sex’. But ‘sex’ is not actual beauty. It reduces the body energies - and it has direct link with psych too.
To not caught in those - I read scriptures. when I start - I was like K - hating those. But only after reading those (after sufferings ended but dragged by senses) - these scriptures I felt amazing - as I read without any ‘self’.
And so i say - after ending self/thought/me - if you see senses drags you - don’t set belief that “scriptures are waste”. It will help you more than anything in this world - to control senses - and to lift us to “merge with truth”.
Viswa, this is so confused! You use the word “sufferings” (in the plural for some reason) - but if you are using it in the same way that Krishnamurti (or Buddhism for that matter) uses the word, then it is clear that suffering does not end until psychological thought comes to an end. Psychological thought includes desire, lust, pleasure, the desire for sex, etc - which create their own “sufferings”. So if you are still beset by problems of lust, desire, sexual addiction, etc, then you have not ended suffering, and you have not ended thought. - To continue to claim that you have done so is a lie, an untruth, a fiction, a self-deception, an illusion.
The senses are not a problem - just as sex, per se, is not a problem. It is our thinking about the senses that creates our problems. This is why it is much more important to understand the place of thought in our lives, than to foolishly try to “control” the senses, etc.
Brother, If a woman comes near and seduce you - what will you do?. Is it lust/desire for sex?.
Now, sufferings ended - no thoughts & no desires. But there is seduction. What will you do? Run away from her or…?. Controlling is Impossible at those time. But actually when you read scriptures - you won’t act in ‘sex’ or run away - Just sit there and won’t be seduced.
The act of ‘sex’ is said forbidden in every scriptures (except for begotting child). It is actually true.
The senses are problem James. It only drags us to crave for sweet dishes,etc…
I was not eating bitter gourd befor reading scriptures - but after reading those - not hating those and I eated them too. Everything in this world becomes beauty in his grace James. It’s going beyond senses - taste,etc… It is the total beauty. Going beyond being fully sensitive.
Viswa - this is so completely false - If you had actually ended all suffering, all desire and thought, then would you be trolling people on this forum? Of course not. Be honest.
The senses are a problem for you - Viswa - because you lack the intelligence to respond to them without thought, memory, and the pleasure, lust, longing this creates in your imagination.
You’ve merely exchanged one form of addiction (the desire for sex) for another (the desire for “him”). - I’m surprised that you don’t seem to be aware of this very basic fact. Of course it is possible to replace the desire for sex (or “seduction”) with another form of desire - for god, for money, for fame, etc. But this is a mere substitution or sublimation: the flame of desire remains underneath all substitutes.
So it is desire that has to be understood - not god or scripture or trying to control what you don’t understand.
But you cannot examine desire if you are at the same time claiming to be beyond desire or beyond thought: because then you are merely caught in illusion and foolishness.
In the Gospel of Thomas it says
If you do not know yourself, then you dwell in poverty, and you are poverty.
Those may look like trolling on your side James. But it’s the way I show the ‘ignorance’ to them. Whomever had seen my reply to them - may have seen/understood “I don’t have any intention for troll but only try to show them”. But if it looks to everyone - then I’m sorry. I will truly stop those “trolling”.
Thanks James - I will look into those.
Questioner: I am a student of chartered accountancy. Even though I could understand each and every word of JK, the message remains vague. What should I do to understand his message fully?
Krishnamurti: Don’t understand his message! (Laughter) He is not bringing a message. He is pointing out your life, not his life, or his message, he is pointing out how you live, what’s your daily life. And we are unwilling to face that. We are unwilling to go into our sorrow, our tortures of anxiety, loneliness, the depressions we go through, the desire to fulfil, to become something.
… the speaker has no message. The message is you. I am not… the speaker is not - this is not a matter of cleverness - just pointing out this.
Sorry @James for this reply and for all. And Thanks
For reality, him and her, this and that, there is much that is said. But we are looking at the psychology, to put it that way. So I am at a meeting, talking with someone, but I have to be clear I am looking at myself integrated in whatever there is. Not ignoring anyone or any thing, and not emphasizing my activity, but looking closely and asking, is all this my self? What is happening with me, and is this common ground? This is what is meant by the mirror. I get an awareness of my condition, my psychology, my thinking, and that this is one of the selves, fragmented, trying to put it all into some order.
This reply I posted yesterday but edited those because, to try another day and feel what actually happens within me.
See, as you said about desire for sex & then diverting them to desire for god, I don’t feel there is those two desires.
See, in our modern world, everywhere er turn there is form of seduction to attract people for money,business,etc… in form of media,news,etc… Women (or) businessman, wants to make them beautiful with many cosmetics but those attract others towards them. And so I feel in Muslims & Hindu traditions, they might introduced ‘Pardah & Hijab’ and have set them to not come out from their home. I feel it is a curse. Beauty attracts to be attached with them. Beauty seduce others.
And so I feel, there is no thought/desire involved in this seduction. After being seduced, the senses controls the mind, and there thoughts come into play and makes to speak (or) watch porn,etc…
Edit - First, I was not this much attracted in my life before. But when my desires/attachments totally reduced and become ‘nil’ only then more attractions happened. In 3 years of my Articleship training for auditor, in my free time after work, I was just in Media watching entertainments,movies then spending time with friends & my crush, buying some food & clothes to my taste and life went on. But when my crush left rejecting me, it totally hurted and only then my desire/attachments totally reduced. I was alone just studying taking classes,eating and sleeping. As the attachments reduced - senses starts to take control of my body. Senses drived me. Only after when I out of sufferings/desires, that senses become a monster. You too will feel about this sensual attraction when your desires are ‘nil’ and drags to hold on something, James.
Within me, when I seduced, thoughts arise to watch porn but immediately stops, with a feeling of “What a beauty in your creation Krishna”. Then my seduction falls and I continue to do work. I don’t know where this feelings/words come but I totally see that it is not from ‘me’.
This is what happens within me in case of seduction.
Edit - Here seduction is not only sensual pleasure but to buy food,clothes,materials like car,bike,furniture,house,good university,good job,alcohol,etc… through Ads.,in-persons. The whole business in this world runs by this seduction/attraction.
Everything that attracts us in this Universe, is a form of seduction to dwell in ‘I’.
But I feel this seduction/lust is the topmost & foremost attraction in this world/society. I don’t know why women want to beautify themselves. I don’t know why men want to be Masculine. The Hairs are much attractive too. The shape of a woman for man and man for woman is much dependent on how haircuts and combing are done. What will they get by not covering their body?. Just money,recognition,compete with another woman,attract men,attract women,etc… And so I feel, saffron clothes are weared (not tight but loose) and hairs are totally shaved/covered/left untouched and grown big beards and long hair by Yogis,Saddhus,Buddhists,etc… Isn’t it?.
What do you feel James? Is this senses/body a curse and we are much attached to it?
Shall I put this way @PhilipB ?
The erasing/dropping ‘image’ is not necessary, but to not act based on that ‘image’ every time is necessary. Everytime the image is present (like how K described about Microphone,physical objects). But to be aware of those and not act based on those image. To be aware and not act by rejecting/accepting someone based on ‘image’ gained by previous conversations.
Does this sound good?
Just as you put it above, we are not rejecting nor accepting the image, but it is another way in which I affect and am affected.
Because One is not aware and so affected. Isn’t it?. As one is not aware - these images affect us and no smooth relationship happens.
So, what is this awareness? It’s like when you see a poisonous snake - you stay away from it. So, this ‘poisonous snake’ is same as ‘images,beliefs,etc…’.
So, what is this seeing?. It is looking everything within us and around us (even if it is past). Only by looking my past - I can be aware.
If I don’t look and pretend that “I dropped/left the image”, this “images,beliefs,‘me’” are like monkeys. If we drop them by not looking it, it will unconsciously jump on our back and we will continue with it and no listening & smooth relationship happens.
But if we look in and around me(including past), once and for all, I can be aware of it. And in that awareness, whenever it jump on back, I will drop it immediately.
We cannot drop/end me & thoughts once and stay away. It will arise. This is Nature. Only after ‘Enlightenment’ it may be possible. Even for K, thought/image/me will arise. But in choiceless awareness, whenever it comes, it dies. There is death every moment.