You said, " I wouldn’t say “resist what he’s saying, ” but rather “resist what we see through what he’s saying. ”
Seeing through the lens of K’s words?
please explain how someone can threaten “everything we know” if we don’t see what he means and how it affects the life we have lived up to that point
He’s saying one must “die” psychologically, and that means negating, seeing, the falseness of everything you think you are and were.
For the brain that is identifying with its psychological content, that’s a threatening prospect.
No, seeing through your own intelligence… because you are not stupid and you know quite well what he is talking about. Another thing is that when you see the work and energy that it entails, you refuse to do it. Because in reality you were expecting something completely different, something that would allow you to get rid of pain and maintain pleasure without any effort at all. And instead you have found that both pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin: the ignorance that controls your life. And getting rid of it involves tremendous energy that until that moment you have been dedicating to the search for pleasure and getting rid of pain.
May I know how you come to the conclusion that “dying psychologically” means “negating”, which implies a self denying itself, which in turn means that the self is actually still alive?
I don’t always know…and I think we’re all stupid, as in stupefied.
Because in reality you were expecting something completely different, something that would allow you to get rid of pain and maintain pleasure without any effort at all. And instead you have found that both pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin: the ignorance that controls your life. And getting rid of it involves tremendous energy that until that moment you have been dedicating to the search for pleasure and getting rid of pain.
Could you have written that using “I” instead of “you”?
Because in reality I were expecting something completely different, something that would allow me to get rid of pain and maintain pleasure without any effort at all. And instead I have found that both pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin: the ignorance that controls my life. And getting rid of it involves tremendous energy that until that moment I have been dedicating to the search for pleasure and getting rid of pain.
p.s.: keep in mind that I never say/ask anything in any conversation that I haven’t asked myself first, putting myself as the object of the question. I’m very sorry that it bothered you that I used a “you” in the post that didn’t actually refer to you in any way (unfortunately the English language is quite impersonal)
We are not all stupid. In fact, we know more about ourselves than we try to make others believe. That’s why when we meet K, or our neighbor, we know perfectly well what they are talking about when they “reprimand us” in one way or another, no matter how much we react by trying to deny it.
To be choicelessly aware is to be one with actuality - not something separate. According to my understanding of K’s teaching, a brain that is choicelessly aware is perceiving directly, seeing things as they actually are. In order for a brain to be operating this way, thought must be silent when it serves no practical purpose, because without silence there is no clarity, only the noise of the stream of consciousness that prevents silence.
A transformed brain is one that is aware of what is actual without reacting (by distorting or denying), and is thoughtful only when necessary or appropriate.
Yes I would say that’s exactly why we listen to him. We are conditioned to believe that ‘help’ will come from ‘outside’. We ignore his sayings like “freedom is at the beginning”. We ignore all the admonitions about ‘becoming’. But maybe as we ‘work’ at it, a seed takes root, maybe not. If ‘conditioning’ is like a form of hypnosis, what responsibility does a person have but to become aware of the ‘spells’ , or the ‘reflexes’ as Bohm described the brain’s habits, that he/she is under? He can’t ‘change’ his conditioning directly because it is his conditioning that believes that he has a ‘responsibility’ to change it. That brings about feelings of guilt, etc. (or pride!). Then over time maybe, the K statement that “you are nothing (not-a-thing)” takes on a deeper meaning and K: “Freedom is born with the perception that freedom is essential” resonates in the brain.
It is the perception of our slavery, identification, absorption etc , that is the freedom?
“We are conditioned” sounds like a heavy stone has fallen on us and is not letting us move forward… is that what you meant?
“maybe as we ‘work’ at it” sounds like discouragement… again, is that what you meant?
And if she or he is not aware of the ‘spells’, is he or she guilty of something? And what about those who, being aware of the spells (even logically), do nothing to defeat them, except complain?
Does this happen because one, after listening to K and seeing oneself (even logically) reflected in His words, thinks that he is incapable of assuming responsibility for a change, and instead of jumping into the ‘void’, he decides to sit in a corner and start complaining about how useless he is, wondering why others don’t change?
What does one do after having heard that ‘he is nothing’? Does one set out on the solitary path of the truth seeker to try to find out for oneself exactly what K meant by ‘you are nothing’, or does one sit in a corner repeating to oneself ‘he is right, I will never be anything’?
No, the perception of our enslavement, identification, absorption, etc. (even logically), is only the beginning of freedom… if after that one decides to walk fearlessly in a pathless land
Thanks Fraggle for your thoughtful replies!
What K’s statement “you are not a thing” means to me now is that we have mistaken what we are, what we actually are, as being this body and this brain…as being these thoughts and these feelings. That is not what we are. What we actually are is awareness, not a personal awareness, just pure awareness. We’re not ‘individuals’, we are ‘the world’.
How do you or anyone, see that?
This would have been nice to have known when I was younger but it is what it is. Better (really) late than never.
What we actually are is unknown because the brain identifies with its thoughts and feeling about who/what it is. These thoughts and feelings are actual in the moment they occur, but as actual as noise is actual, which is why the sound of constantly streaming psychological content must be continuously streaming.
What we actually are is awareness, not a personal awareness, just pure awareness. We’re not ‘individuals’, we are ‘the world’.
This is our best guess, our best theory as to who/what we would be were we not confused and conflicted by our stream of consciousness.
So I can’t pretend it is the truth because I’m not sure about anthing. I can only assume that the brain can awaken from its slumber and discern the difference between smoke and substance, noise and silence.
Don’t dismiss it because we can’t ‘grasp’ it. We can’t grasp it because we are it. So leave it as an open question: what we actually are is awareness?
We’re not a thing.
I’m not dismissing it - I’m being honest, admitting that this is my best guess as to what we are. Of course it’s “an open question”. Don’t read too much into what I’ve written. The more aware one is of one’s conditioning, the more unlikely one is to claim knowledge of what’s true.
We’re all in the dark, but we’re not all equally blind. The more confident, the more sure one is about things that aren’t self-evidently or demonstrably true, the blinder one is.
In this realm, can we speak of 'facts? Are insights facts? Insights reveal possibilities that have been ‘obscured’ by one’s knowledge? One’s opinions.
How we see ourselves affects the world. It affects how we relate to each other. As isolated troglodites we act, think, feel differently than we would if we saw ourselves and the ‘other’ as expressions, manifestations of the same underlying quality (awareness?).
