How do I feel about living with myself?
Could I live without my self?
Is it possible to live without being the human
Whose thoughts and actions I cannot deny are mine?
Or are they mine?
Are my streaming thoughts and my actions significantly different
From the thoughts and acts of others?
Am I making too much of the differences
Because the similarity is what matters?
Am I more inclined to decide what matters
Than inclined to know what I’m actually doing?
Have I ever lived with myself?
I wonder whether we can see (together if you like) the trick that one is playing by asking this question. I hope I do not have to explain this.
I’m afraid you’ll have to explain this!
Have you no sense of self?
What I was asking is not whether or not we have a sense of self, but whether we have ever really been related to that self, or on the contrary, we are always running away from it because we don’t like what we see of it, which would mean that I have never really been related (or lived) with my-self.
If my sense of self is an image crafted by my desire to be someone I’m proud of and not someone I’m ashamed of, there is no actual self to be in relationship with. There is only the belief that my judgement is authority, and only I can say who/what I am.
But when it is obvious that my judgement is fallible and unreliable, and that I know nothing but what I think, my self is whatever thought’s latest sound and fury signifies.
I just wondered whether it is not the self itself that is asking the question. And by asking it blocks itself in finding an answer, no? So, after all, is this not a wrong question?
Let’s look at it. Someone raises a question during a conversation in which I am present, so I hear the question. But instead of paying attention and flowing with it and the conversation, I start to wonder who has really asked the question, or if the question is really meant to evade whatever is being discussed at the moment, to the point that I come to think that the question might be wrong. What happens to the question then? What about the conversation?
Can I ask you if you have gone deeper into my question?
If I have no relationship with my-self, which implies that I have never really lived with my-self even though it runs my life, how am I to see first-hand how the bondage he creates works?
Do you understand my question?
You seem to be assuming that the self is actual, not just imagined, not just an image created and modified by thought.
Of course it is real! Until we fully see its falsity first-hand, it remains real and continues to rule our lives as it pleases. Now, how am I to see its falsity first-hand, if I have absolutely no relationship with it just because my thought has stubbornly said that it is not real and ‘I’ have believe it?
Come on, I don’t think it’s that hard to understand what I mean.
Whatever it is and despite what I say or think about it, it persists in doing what it does, so I am no more removed from it than I ever was. In fact, I’m more in contact with it than ever. So it doesn’t matter what I say or think about it because I’m living with it.
Have I ever lived with myself? And you also asked to go into the question and not to jump to any conclusions.
Not to have any opinions , let alone have any answers. Can I (we) do this.
What do we know about the self, first handed as you mentioned. Do we know ourselves? And why do we want to know ourselves? Will this knowledge bring about a change in ourselved, as it were?
Or could it be that this knowledge again will bring about a burden in our lives?
I know, a lot of questions, but plz do not try to find an answer, if you know what I mean.
Does ‘thinking-together’ require prior knowledge about my-self?
Is this the purpose of ‘thinking-together’, to accumulate knowledge about my-self?
Do we want to know ourselves in ‘thinking-together’, or simply to look at ourselves together (which, by the way, implies that one has no problem at all in exposing him/herself in conversation)?
Is that what happens to you when you read/listen to Krishnamurti? No change happens because you simply accumulate knowledge and more knowledge about your-self?
Why is your-self interested in preventing me from further observation and questioning, to go further?
Plz, will you read the whole reply instead of dividing it and then answering …
Thx
Let me tell you that I read at least three times every post I have something to ask/comment about, plus an undetermined time of observation/reflection on what the other is saying and what I am going to ask/comment about long before my hands can press any key on the keyboard to reply. So what you call ‘division’, only denotes my points of interest on what the other is saying and my questions/comments on it, nothing more.
On the other hand you had no need to justify that you were not going to say anything about my last post, everyone here is free to continue or not any conversation with other forum members without any need to justify it.
I wonder if Kinfonet is a non-commital forum.
I think it is not, though it is very limited ( we havee only words) and I am glad that you don’t react immediately ( that is what I was suggesting when I wrote about not giving an answer).