What do any of us actually know? Someone may say, ‘I know I am confused. I know I am conditioned.’ Someone else may say, ‘I know what the truth is. I know that I am enlightened.’ But they are both dealing in ideas and images about themselves.
So is there a different reality far from the ordinary? I doubt it very much. That too is an idea. Therefore it is an invitation to look directly at what we are calling an ordinary life, our daily life, without adding ideas to the mix of what we see.
This matter of finding and talking to someone who has had insight is also an idea which takes us away from looking directly at what we are. We are looking for help from another because we are feeling lost. So the fact is that we are feeling lost. The idea that there may exist someone who is not lost is what keeps us from facing this fact. Now, if there is insight into the fact that I am feeling lost and that nobody in the world can help me do anything about it, am I still lost? Or there has been a change in perception. This change in perception immediately affects how I feel.
Therefore I have to be very careful about believing that I know how I feel. Can we instead just look together at what is actually taking place within ourselves, which is within you and me in our relationship, without pretending in advance that we know what it is and why it is going on? Then just by looking at the ordinary we shall find ourselves in an extraordinary place.
Excellent response - good thing he didn’t say he has the power of insight - or we would know for sure that he was an idiot.
@Valer It might be quite extraordinary to see clearly what we are (doing, saying being) - and clarity might be available for those that are curious to look (at what we are saying, being, doing) .
Our words are a window into what we mean - what we mean is a window into what we are (being, believing, seeing, desiring etc)
That is just about words, names, which even may be rude. Facts instead is what has real value. Maheshji spoke of our facts of existence, which may be miserable. Of course then everything is far from '‘enlightenment’, complete freedom, etc.
This is what I am trying to find out - what you mean by facts - thats why I asked you the question above.
Could you please answer it (if you want to)?
To answer your question “what is a fact?” (is that close enough?) - I am okay with a dictionary definition - but for now lets define it as : that which conforms with actual reality. For example : if there are 4 marbles in the jar - a fact would be that there is an even number of marbles in the jar (not an odd number)
Krishnamurti was not a psychiatrist. He had discussions with psychiatrists because they thought these discussions could help in their work and, on Krishnamurti’s part, he wanted to show that a sane mind can engage in any sort of discussion. He spoke about the brain and how it works based on fact and evidence. He said several times that he didn’t mean to help people, people only can help themselves. He said that he spoke out of a genuine need for expression, just as the perfume of a flower comes out naturally.
@Valer Waoh! We are asking some very tricky questions. But we seem to be refusing to be clear about the basic level stuff - don’t you think its important that we make sure we agree about the basics first? Maybe I think the planet Earth is flat and controlled by 5th dimensional frogs?
Yes facts (which we don’t know whether we mean the same thing by this word) are something that we hold a mental picture of.
All experience is mental.
Question : do we agree, for the sake of this discussion that Valer and macdougdoug really exist as 2 separate entities?
Everybody sees his own facts which make his own reality. It is what is our first and most direct fact, no matter if there may be something more to it, but which is not our reality in perception
Right now - we are just having a discussion - and I think we should be interested in what is going on (within us, I mean: what is our experience)
We are trying to find out what we mean by truth. I am not trying to get to an answer in a dictionary of philosophy. And we are trying to see our reactions to simple questions (ie.who we are in this moment)
Can you answer this simple question (its still the same one) :
Question : If I think that x is true, and you think that y is true (and x and y contradict each other), can we both be correct?
Isn’t Krishnamurti’s teaching theoretical? He says mankind took a ‘wrong turn’. Is that a fact or his belief? He says that ‘you don’t exist’ that you are a’trick of thought’s’…fact or his belief. His theory?
I wonder, how all of us can be different in our way of thinking… I personally is familiar with Krishnamurti’s so called teachings for about 20 years… And as for me, I do not know anything more “practical” If I may use this word…But I also noticed long ago how differently people can see K’s teachings, even those who claim they see them important for themselves
