An illusion can’t realize anything. It’s just an illusion.
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It is strange that you can see a sea wave as something that is not-a-thing and that you see the sea as a thing. Why did you stop at that point in your reasoning and investigation? Because if you had continued, you would have seen that the sea is also not-a-thing. You see? Stopping close observation at a certain point of a supposed real and existing self thinking “this self exists and this other does not exist” is what creates the illusion in the mind of a real and self-existent “I” that in fact has never existed.
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Right! The only problem is that such illusion is convinced that it can realize what it is, and for that reason it spends its whole life struggling with itself; trying to constantly modify itself hoping that the next modification can bring it the peace that it yearns so much. Of course, without any success beyond a few hours, days, or months, … until it feels that a new modification is necessary and thus until the illusory death of that illusion that the self is.
Time to go bed, read you tomorrow 
An illusion cannot think, be convinced, or realize anything.
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Well, "you” are an illusion yourself, and yet “you” made such a statement … then?
You know this is not true at all. It may be so for some, but not necessarily for all. It is possible to be with hundreds of people days or months, and never identify with such an “occasional identity” as you call it. To think that in order to preserve the mind one must remain alone and not relate much to others is the biggest mistake of many people who consider themselves spiritual. An escape to continue with the illusory self.
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A very interesting statement that inevitably raises the question “Which came first, the thought or the self?”. If it was the thought, what is the meaning of a thought without a self? And if it was the self, where did that self come from?
Could you elaborate this, please?
Is this the right time for that old nugget? :
“we are trying explain the dream from inside the dream - its all dream - the weird flowers in the sky that you are trying to explain to the guy in the dream and even the you in the dream - even the bit where you get confused about explaining dream stuff in dreams is part of the dream”
Or we can change that to : even the confusion we have about reality is real.
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The quotation is not correct, it lacks a whole lot of other sentences which give sense to all the speech. I wonder whether you did it on purpose or just because of your lack of understanding.
Anyway, I’m here to answer to all your observations.
Yes, it’s a contradiction or conflict but not an irreconcilable one. We are full of conflicts, contradictions, aren’t we? Contradictions and conflicts in our way of living, of feeling, which create disorder and suffering in our life. This contradiction is one we all share here in this forum, from one side we know that we cannot commit suicide but on the other side we would like to be free of ourselves according to what K. (or any other person) said. I think it’s a useful contradiction, because as I have said, it prevents us from quitting our whole search.
And let me add one important thing: we cannot get rid of our contradictions regarding our psychological nature and furthermore that is not the purpose of these discussions. While we can get rid of the contradictions in our speech and this is just what we are here to do.
Dear Juan,
Your argument seems to me – but I may be wrong – a metaphysical one and as I have said to Kimo (Inquiry) metaphysics does not help us to live better.
Mine was not an investigation but just a way of looking at the problem of the self, of the ego, of what we are. Now you say that the “I” never existed -which could be metaphysically correct but practically we suffer, we are hurt, we are ambitious, we are violent, we are closed in our world of abstractions and so on, which are all manifestations of the nature of the “I”. So, for being non-existent it makes a lot of mess!
You say that also the sea is not a thing (I used the word “thing” in the sense of “object”. Well, if we should believe to science all the things we call “things” are mere illusory perceptions. As you probably know 99,99999999…. % of matter is void and at an elementary level the sea is only a bundle of subatomic particles spinning about. Then what? Does that mean that the sea is not a thing (in the sense of “object” -or worse that is not real-? Things, objects are something we can interact with, or deal with. And surely we can interact with the sea. As we can interact with the self, other selves or ourselves. That is the important thing, the real thing.
Juan one must be very honest in these matters and distinguish between a theory and the practical word we live in. Otherwise we may lose our lives if we fall into the sea and are not able to swim!
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If everything is dream, how is it possible that someone who is dreaming all the time can make such a claim and pretend that it is real? Unless, of course, that such a person is consciously aware that he’s dreaming within the dream … which obviously completely invalidates his above claim that “everything is dream”.
It is the same with this statement. If one is always dreaming (which means that nothing in the dream is real), how can you know that you are confused, or even that such confusion about the things that happen in the dream is real? Confused about what reality if everything is dream?.
So to see that one is confused about the things that happen in the dream, one must wake up somehow from such a dream. Now, is that possible?. Otherwise any statement about what happens in the dream is just dream, that is: nothing … including K’s or anybody else words that have talked, talk, or will talk in the future about such a dream.
And if, on the contrary, it is possible to wake up from the dream, the question is, how is someone who is dreaming really going to meet those who have supposedly awakened, beyond the dream itself?
In a word, can one stay awake and still stay in the dream to somehow help those who are still dreaming? If you say no, then it is completely absurd that we are here trying to penetrate the words of K or any other, since those words being only dream and therefore completely empty, the only thing they would achieve is to continue keeping everyone within the dream.
Dear Mr. Fraggle,
Good luck with all that - I won’t be accompanying you on this tortuous route - sorry.
My question though would be - what will we have gained by this confusion or even by any (temporarily) satisfying conclusion that we might come to?
Apart from a more complex model with which to interpret the world? Maybe thats the goal?
PS - Reminds me that “I don’t know” seems to be a much more powerful tool to truth than “I know”
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Of course, Donato! … But this is only because we, not seeing that the “I” is a mere fabrication, become completely attached to it as something really existent beyond any fabrication of the mind, and hence our suffering, wounds, ambitions, violence, etc.
Also a snake can cause you a lot of trouble … until you realize it’s just a rope.
Yes, that’s it! The sea is there, but not as we think it exist. And it’s the same with anything else including people. It’s because we don’t see things (or ‘objects’) as they really are, that we attach to or reject them, causing us and others all kind of troubles. Therefore it’s very difficult for such a mind to understand that even if the sea or a sunset does not exist as such, we can’t enjoy it.
And in case you were thinking of asking “if the sunset does not exist, who is it then who is enjoying the sunset?” Let me tell you that it is he who, having dissolved such ignorance becomes one
with that which does not exist either (in the way it appears to us).
Only the ignorant lose their lives sinking into the ocean of life for not knowing how to swim in an empty ocean.
surely I must be one of those ignorants! (
I think you have not undertood the essence of my reasoning, or maybe you have undestood it but your ego - like all egos - likes to contend to defends one’s affirmations. ( Let’s play this game!
I’m utterly ignorant, I ignore that I don’t exist and - I don’t know why - I insist in believing I exist. Now you come and tell me, “no, you don’t exist”. Do you really think what you say can help me? Do you really think that just teelling to another that the “I” has no existence, that person will realize truth?
And by the way, you are assuming that that person or this person here has never heard what you have said?
There is a warning here in this page, an authomatic one, which tells me that I gave too many replies about this topic. So this be my last one.
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You do not need to feel sorry, I did not ask you to accompany me at any time! On the other hand, truly going within oneself has always been a tortuous route in which everything must be questioned, including oneself, all the time. Many are afraid of that, so they prefer to stay on the surface, which is neither good nor bad, but simply their choice.
Why interpret the world when what this world really needs is that we only look at it with naked eyes, that is: totally free of any simple or complex model that we have created in the past with our blind ignorance?
Neither are they as powerful as looking at everything as it is without a single breeze of “I know” or “I don’t know” what is.
No, one never insist in believing that one exist, one simply gives for granted that one exists the way he thinks he exists, that’s all.
No, I will never come to you and do what you are saying. But if we meet and you start talking to me about your suffering, then I will tell you: “All your suffering is because you believe that you exist in the way that it appears to you. Do you really want to free yourself from suffering? Then look carefully at that “I” that appears to you as truly existing regardless of your thinking. There you will find the cause of all your suffering”. And if after that you tell me (as you have already said) “this is my last conversation with you”, no problem, I will leave and continue on my way to do anything else. Your suffering is not my business but yours, and it only depends on you whether you free yourself from it or not, it does not depend on me or anybody else at all.
Anyway thanks a lot for this short dialog.
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You’re conflating illusion with delusion. A delusional mind is not an illusion - it’s a mental condition. Such a mind is plagued with illusions.
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Does it have to be true for everyone to be true?
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You’ve jumped to this conclusion. I never advocated isolation. You have misunderstood because you’re argumentative. That much is clear from your communication with others here.
My point was that if you get involved with people who all hold the same beliefs and values, unless you are spying on them or studying them for research, you’ll adopt their values and beliefs to gain their acceptance. Over time, their values and beliefs become yours. Likewise, if you identify with values and beliefs you think are yours exclusively, you’re no less deluded than those who share the values and beliefs of others.
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I am not conflating anything. I simply say that the “I” is an illusion, and that this illusion believes it to be real all the time. This is why such illusion is able to assert that “an illusion cannot think, be convinced, or realize anything” as “you” (please note the quotation marks) said, not being aware that such statement arises from the illusion itself.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
true (1): agree with the current state of affairs
As you know i said “this is not true at all”, which is the same as to say that “this is not in accordance with the current state of affairs at all”, as I showed with the rest of my reasoning, saying that for some it may be so (subjectively), but not for everyone else (subjectively). So as you can see i was not talking about a fact or an absolute truth, but only about subjective truth.
Does this answer your question?
I know exactly what you said, so I will repeat my words: your statement is not true at all. That resounding statement you make is only your subjective vision, which does not serve to judge everyone equally. How can you know that everyone conforms to that pattern that you seem so attached to?
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