For as long as plotting and scheming are all we do, fear and desire will be our travelling companions.
Paradoxically, to no longer engage in plotting and scheming would to be aware of the plotting and scheming, the thinking, the image-making, for that is what is real. The content of our consciousness is that. To imagine otherwise is well, just that, imagination.
Then you understand as much as the next person!
I consider to be an immensely subtle thing which no brain will see which unless it is quiet, and a brain disturbed by fears it is not even consciously aware of cannot be quiet.
I wonder if it matters all that much. The greater part to me is that we are in being at all, and that we are in reality. That some of us have gravitated here for one reason or another seems small beer compared to all that. We may start off with the best of intentions but quickly find that what is only an idealisation is no match for what there actually is to psyche, and given the extent of fear, things are kept pretty civil, which actually may not be that helpful, as it allows nonsense to thrive.
This is where reality bites. The question needs to be put, if a single hive mind, a common consciousness, is such an attractive proposition, why does so much effort go into the creation of a separate existence, and into maintaining it? The self is isolated at a fundamental level in itself, and there is a reason why this has remained unaltered for millennia in the face of suffering. We are in reality as conscious entities, and we are aware of something which is wrong with it all, and the more we investigate it, the more that sense grows, yet our position remains intractable.
Surely a core requirement is that the minds involved are able to keep up with one another, are able to look at the required depth and cope with the fear they may find there, and not be involved in deceit and delusion. I have found that having a professed interest in the things Krishnamurti spoke of is no guarantee at all of that.
âDyingâ in the manner you are using this word has no relation to the dying of the body. âDying is nowâ is a Krishnamurti âtruismâ that â in my opinion â has no practical value. Even if it is doable, and I am not implying that Paul Dimmock has not done it, the painful process of the physical body dying still exists as a human condition affecting mankind.
On the one hand, it is true that âthought breeds fearâ (Krishnamurti). Thinking about the eventual dying of my body does evoke fear. On the other hand, dying seems to be a natural process that the body must go through as part of the cycle of life. It is a condition that flowering plants, zebras, giraffes and humans go through. Be that as it may, I donât like it. And in the Buddha story, Siddharta did not like it either and he set off to seek the deathless state. This, to me, is taking the issue head-on to deal with an unacceptable situation.
Dying to fear has no appeal to me. It is nothing more than acquiring the ability to put up with a physically painful life without flinching.
Hi sree,
May I ask you a question here?
There is pain in death physically. I donât question it. But it is just a second/minute in future.
But why we âfearâ of that âsecond/minuteâ (i.e. about future) for our entire life? Why we âwantâ to hold on to this body? Had you ever asked these questions?
If we die âpsychologicallyâ now, there will be no âpain/sufferings/fearâ about physical death in our life. Even if Iâm covid positive - I wonât be fear of physical death - because what we are gonna âachieveâ by holding on to this body? What/why are we attached and fear of losing it?
Donât accept the ânatureâ and âlawsâ of society/fear/anything. Question it seriously like âwhy these laws brought in force, why fear acts like this, what are the causes effects, etcâŚâ - then you can âseeâ everything and be âchoice-lessly awareâ of all (including fear,death,nature,society).
And I suggest to drink 'hot milk with pure turmeric powder" daily to prevent us from corona/cough. It was practiced as a culture anciently and so brought now in action by Indian AYUSH. You may also suggest this to all who asks. Medical associations are creating panic for business,etc⌠The abovesaid has no side effects if consumed in limit. You donât âacceptâ this suggestion but question and research it.
A healthy vegetarian diet - preserve our body almost from all diseases. And so K did this and not to be âattracted/cravingâ for the smell of junk foods/etc⌠as being âawareâ of itâs effects and everything.
Thanks 
Hi Dom,
Yes - K said these - but it is said to a person who has symptoms of physical death. Because we canât ask him to âobserveâ at that moment. K also raised this question in a discussion - âwhat to say a person in a funeral or who is suffering due to losing someone he attached withâ. Itâs impossible to have inquiry/discussion with them. Itâs a responsibility to provide moral support to them.
But, does this apply for us too? Donât we gather here to âobserve/inquireâ about all these?. We have responsibility to take care of this body/dependents. But do we also need moral support and continue to live with âfearâ of losing this physical body and be attached with - like normal humans?
Then die to that. Die to what you donât like. Thatâs the whole point. You have made death into a personal issue; and that affects the rest of your life, which is going to be all about you and your pleasures. In searching for a deathless state you are indulging in a lifeless existence because youâll be forever chasing a dream; and even your dream is a second-hand dream.
Whenever we talk about fear we are always talking about the fear of something that may happen tomorrow. Fear never exists in the present moment. Our fears of the future are all dictated by our memories of the past, which are all the remembered experiences of being hurt in relationship. In the experience of being hurt is the beginning of the formation of images, which are then employed to protect ourselves from further harm. But what is it that gets hurt in relationship?
I feel there is a lot more to it than this though. This relates to listening and observation, and to what we are really all about here. I say we canât have it both ways here. We canât be calling the reality of the separate self into question, and speaking of a consciousness which is general to mankind one moment, and then be insisting on our own personal inscrutability the next, while levying a charge of image at a person, in order to deflect from a valid observation they are of our situation, when any brain with sufficient sensitivity can perform such.
What makes anyone think their fear is a secret from anyone prepared to look at it in their self, or that they canât be read like a book at times, or that things canât be seen from the way they conduct themselves towards others, or from things they always neglect to mention?
When I continually deflect the point, and invoke the charge of image over and over in my own defence, then that is a clear abuse of process.
Yes very much so. We must be fully human, and be sensitive and alert to every situation. When we look closely at death in ourselves without looking away we can learn of our deeper fears and anxieties, so we are not fearful at approaching the subject. We can be sensitive in our approach to an other, and not mistake a purely intellectual stance for understanding on the matter. The exact same applies with the self. The self is doing certain things for a reason it is not always consciously aware of, and does not wish to be, which is why there is no point in simply telling it to do this and do that all the time, which is really a form of self-aggrandisement, which is itself born of fear.
Dominic,
You can see this self how it plays âtricksâ to be attached - right?
Or your âselfâ is not wishing to âseeâ this ?
Donât say about all humans - I ask you personally. Does your âselfâ is not wishing to see this? Are you now bound to its tricks/beliefs/control?
Could you also âseeâ this fear - how it brings sufferings?
Had you asked - âwhy there is deep fear in us?â without waiting for an answer and can you see itâs whole structure?
And do you point me personally that - Iâm self aggrandizing and saying an âideaâ? Or some other? Or about your âselfâ?
What is the point to living entirely without fear? Fear is an emotion, a natural response to perceived adversity. Due to this ongoing Covid pandemic, many people fear that they will lose their businesses and life savings. Tens of thousands of people have lost their jobs. How will they feed themselves and their families? Fear would drive them to find a way out of their predicament without delay. I donât understand your rationale for getting rid of fear.
But there is more than âfearâ which drives and one say it as âattachmentâ.
This âattachmentâ - acts and immediately âfearâ arises and says âWhat Iâm gonna do to do the rest of my life. If I fail - what does the society/people gonna say?â(i.e. about future).
You may see a person below poverty line - they âstrive/long/searchâ for food - but they donât have fear about the future. They work - they earn little money and spend it for food,etc⌠and next day they wake up and again goes on as such.
Only when there is âattachmentâ - and when lost/losing it - there is âfearâ about the future.
Why one has to âsaveâ money or business? - Had you think about that?
When there is âfearâ it also drives to the way of âsuicideâ.
You may ask the persons who lost their job - do you have money for food?- they will say 'yes. Right now I have - But i donât know about future - and so i âfearâ" - but they may own a âlandâ/âhouseâ/âcarâ/âbikeâ/âjewelâ/etc⌠which they donât think to sale and earn money - as they are much âattachedâ to these.
There is plenty of way to earn for âfoodâ (like physical work for wages - but they feel their âimageâ will be damaged if they go and do those work) - and when there is âwantâ for money more than for food and âattachmentâ like abovesaid - there is âfearâ.
Blossoming into what? Why do you believe that the ability to be self-aware is a liability, an impediment to âtransformationâ or the âfundamental changeâ that Krishnamurti talked about?
Imagining the horrors up ahead is a natural response, in my opinion. Why would Krishnamurti be so insistent on the need for us to inquire if he did not imagine the horrors up ahead for mankind?
What is fear? You call it both an emotion and a natural response to a perceived adversity. When we are faced with any immediate physical threat, the body makes its own instinctive, self-protective response without involving any trace of emotion or thought. Perception of the danger and the action from that perception are simultaneous; there is no delay. There is no fear at all, just the perception and its action. It is only later that fear arrives as an emotional response: all the thoughts and feelings about what might have happened to me. So fear is not part of the natural response; fear comes in when there is a gap between the perceiver and the perceived adversity. Once the perceived adversity is in the past, the perceiver is able to think about it and indulge in emotional responses; and from those thoughts and feelings about a past event arise all the imagined adversities of the future. So while there is a perceiver separate from what he perceives, separate from the world in which he lives, there must always be fear in his life. Fear doesnât just appear because we might lose our jobs; fear is our embedded mode of living right across the world. Fear is the bedrock of all our relationships. So it is not that fear drives us to find a way out of our predicaments; it is fear that has tied us to the very things we are now seeking to protect: our jobs, our families, our friendships and our status in society. Once we see this, it is possible to have a totally different view of the world.
They are not up ahead. We live with them day after day. They are right in front of us.
For me Sree you have presented straight forwardly the âsword of Damoclesâ situation that each of us has inherited. We are aware that the death of the body lies inevitably ahead. We donât know when that will happen and we donât how or what painful circumstances will accompany that death. We try to put it out of our mind but it is always there. To a degree, it spoils the joys of living. We sublimate it. We have beliefs, opinions, philosophies about it. We mitigate it but cannot be rid of it. I do want to come back to your questions to me but canât right now but will as soon as I can.
Yes, if you are talking about reacting to the strike of a rattlesnake. The immediate response is instinctual. After that, the thought of the incident â whether or not it resulted in a snake bite â evokes fear. If you had escaped, fear will make you watch your step to avoid snakes in the future. If you have not and suffered the effect of the poison, fear will drive us to develop the knowledge to treat snake bites.
Fear may not be the natural response of instinct but it is the natural response of thought and it is not a bad thing. It is how knowledge is acquired to avoid and deal with adversities in life. This is how we live.
Although zebras and giraffes have no self-awareness, their lives are also conditioned by fear. Fear is not morbidity but a part of intelligence that informs the way we live safely.
Fear can also exist as a neurosis. In this case, it is a psychological disorder. Krishnamurti was talking about this kind of fear. Am I wrong?
Letâs start simply. Me. I feel agitated when there is fear.
Fear exists only in the present moment. The fact that fear is an emotional response to an imagined future event is beside the point.
The poison of a snake presents a real physical threat. Itâs not fear that keeps us safe when walking in snake territory; it is in the awareness of watching oneâs step. Similarly, the knowledge to cure a snake bite is the result of human intelligence. It is intelligence and awareness that keeps the body safe.
Is there any place for fear in human relationships? Thatâs the real issue, the real danger.