When fear collapses, the world changes. It is by its absence that we are confronted by just how all encompassing its distortion is.
And once we have the memory of this moment, we can describe it and its implications
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You see fear as the root of suffering, right? (Youâve said so lots of times in lots of ways.)
For me itâs also a biggie, but I see the misunderstanding of reality as more root-ful. And I find thought to be a powerful tool to help âfixâ this.
Just an observation. Whatcha think?
We use words in dialogue, together or internally, and the words leave us with an impression that there is something, some object, concept, experience, to realize. So the word fear seems to mean there is a fearful experience to come to. This is the wrong approach. Thatâs what we do when we set about doing some activity, or thinking to find explanations. Contemplation, like meditation, needs to be the whole being carefully, quietly, looking at itself, letting all the feelings, emotions, thoughts, memories, settle down. There needs to be no agenda, no regime, no waiting for something.
How will thought fix our misunderstanding of reality? Can you describe how you see this process working?
Hello Douglas. It seems like the gut, or digestive system, is a very sensitive part of the body which is full of nerve fibres. If something rings true or resonates with us, then probably we are picking up something that is being communicated. I would say that to some extent, this âgut reactionâ can guide us. However, as you say, it can be wrong sometimes so it is probably a good idea to question and doubt it in a reasonable measure.
I think we were talking in the context of being aware of what reality and truth are and how to trust ourselves in being in contact or not with these things. More specifically, K talked about, as far as I understand, the effortless obsevation of the movement of thought. When we discuss this, we seem to have different understandings of what he meant here. How do you see this?
When you said gut feeling, I certainly didnât understand you were actually talking about stuff happening in the digestive tract 
The most important thing is to be able to let go of any belief freely/without effort, as soon as it is shown to be fallacious.
How I think (believe) that thought can help^ us understand the nature of reality:
Thought is the undisputed master of logic and reasoning, and reality seems to either adhere to reason or enjoy an intimate relationship with it. (I canât know this for sure, we could be living in a reason-defying simulation. But common sense says otherwise.)
Thought is able to go beyond reasoning into intuition, insight, discovery, creativity, feeling, etc. This increases its value as a tool for exploring the nature of reality.
Thought is able to do some hefty self-reflection, observing and contemplating itself, which also increases its value for exploring reality.
^ Thought works in cahoots with the senses, awareness, consciousness, the body and central nervous system, etc.
Yes - but I mean what happens at the end? What is the end goal? How do you know when you have succeeded? (ie. fixed our misunderstanding of reality, thus solving the problem of suffering)
PS - It might be helpful to consider why this end goal has not yet been achieved - despite humanityâs accumulated knowledge - which incidentally no one brain can hold even 0.1% of.
The goal is to understand the nature of reality. This might or might not end suffering. (Perhaps the nature of reality is to suffer?) I donât know how to determine if youâve succeeded. You could rely on feeling or intuition or mystical certainty, but none of these provides âobjectiveâ proof.
I donât know if anyone has achieved the goal of understanding the nature of reality. Some people over the span of human history have claimed to have gotten IT. But all we really have is their word for it.
Do you know what you mean? If so, please explain what you mean by understand the nature of reality and what you think it will achieve.
If you donât know what you mean, why say the words?
To understand the nature of reality, I imagine, is to understand whatâs really going on, to realize the unseen (dis)order that makes the universe go 'round.
What I imagine this understanding will yield is joy and completeness.
Thatâs really all I got! Using fancy words and fancy theories will I think do more harm than good.
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We are lost and confused, wandering around in circles because we cannot stay with what we are (these hopes and desires you have described so well), and see it for what it is.
We chase after shadows, not realising that they are cast by us.
I am the thinking. All that I want and fear is me.
I am confused and wanting, therefore I am.
There is nothing going on to understand, apart from the one that is making it all up.
I agree itâs vital to understand the self. Itâs the lens through which we experience the world. But thatâs just part of the picture for me, understanding not-self of all ilk is also huge. Not accumulating knowledge (bo-ring!), rather grokking the essence.
Thought is very tricky. In thought, I use a word, like self, abstractly, conceptually, and completely ignore it is me thinking.
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Thatâs where Bohmâs prioprioception of thought comes into play, thought is aware of its content: thoughts, images, memories, feelings, emotions, the ego, self, identity, whatever.
Inquiry: Before you even ask, no, I am not claiming to have virtuosic proprioception. But I have some, more than I used to, and Iâd guess thatâs true for all of us here.
Isnât this still all assimilated by me, and is understood through what I have in the way of thought?
Is this âletting go of beliefâ the same as emptying ourserlves of past knowledge and experience, as opposed to accumulating these?
The difficulty of letting go of belief/knowledge comes from identification with said belief.
Because they are my beliefs, it is like letting go of a part of myself - which is why we sometimes struggle against all odds to hold on to to even the most obviously crazy stuff.
(Although its more obvious when its your crazy beliefs than when its mine)
nb. This is probably another clue regarding the difference between psychological and practical knowledge - we can let go of useless info easily when the task at hand is more important than any misplaced pride in our own expertise
This way of describing the problem (above) aligns well with the idea of âemptying ourselvesâ of knowledge - not so much getting rid of, or magicking away what we know - but just not tying it to identity/self
If thought is truly a hermetic system, as Bohm theorized, every thought object is trapped in it along with the process of thinking itself.
Itâs a box of self you canât think your way out of.
IF thought is truly a hermetic system. Itâs a theory, it might be wrong. How would we know?
The âyouâ that is trying to be free, is thought itselfâŚthe key to getting beyond this is the realization that thought is a âmaterial process â , it operates mechanically through associations of images, knowledge, etc springing from memory. The âyouâ entity is itâs creation. An illusion. Awareness of all this is necessaryâŚAwareness is not material, it is not personal. Any struggle to be âfreeâ implies time and thought IS time.
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