Please start - I will answer as best I can asap - but I might have to come back to this later.
Ok. I will start this in the discussion “How to get rid of Sufferings?”
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Is it that when I am a tablespoon of salt in a very small glass of water, then I am a very salty glass of water, but when I am a tablespoon of salt in a vast freshwater lake?
I will go and have a look at what you say on the “How to get rid of Sufferings?” thread - but I have a problem: I don’t know what you mean by a discussion without the interference of beliefs…" - could you please define this a bit?
My problem is that the communication of ideas using language is 100% dependant on beliefs/memory/knowledge. (ideas & language = concepts & symbols = memory/knowledge/beliefs)
Maybe “without interference of beliefs, and knowledge” is just an expression of hope?
Have you “gone into”, inquired, into this question for yourself, or are you throwing it out to others because you don’t believe you can inquire on your own?
I’m throwing out to others, what we can ‘achieve’ through all these discussions.
I had ‘inquired’ and gone into ‘self’, and had found something related to ‘love’, which K points out.
Yes. For communication, we need the support of Language skills we learned through our life. But to ‘listen’, ‘see’ and ‘enquire’ - if we depend on these, we are lost. We may use inappropriate ‘words’ to communicate. Thats why we, K ask - 'What do you mean by this ‘word’".
Agreed - that is the language part - but there is also the exchange of ideas part. Which is highly problematic if we are to somehow have a discussion “without interference of beliefs and knowledge”. (impossible really)
For example, in the proposed dicussion on the other thread (how to get rid of sufferings) all you seem to be doing is proposing a whole load of beliefs/knowledge and asking for agreement.
Oops, no it’s not my belief. I can see it actually. It’s my view. If you think it’s a belief - and not it is practically true (i.e. if we can’t see), just look our child what he does. If we don’t have, then let’s come out of our house, enter our neighbourhood’s house and observe their baby/teenage boy how he acts. Just try this. It’s not my belief/knowledge. I can’t say it’s a fact too. But we have a tool called ‘observation’. If you observe something different, i’m eager to learn that too. And i think we can continue that discussion, after we both can see that. Because, it’s very very very very important to continue about security.
Fine?
Ideas itself is past. It arises from memory - with more permutations and combinations. So, we don’t need ideas to listen, see/view/observe and to inquire about it. If we start to exchange our ideas, we may debate on and on and on. So, we have to come out from our memories/knowledge/experiences,etc… - to observe. But to express what we ‘view/see/observe’ - we need linguistic knowledge. And, words have different meanings based on the context we use. So, we can clarify that by asking “what do you mean by that”. Then, we have actual relationship in our discussion.
I can see the sun rise in the east and set in the west. Does this mean that the sun actually rises in the east and sets in the west? Or are these (Identity, ability, vision, sun, relative movement, direction) just useful (or potentially detrimental) concepts/ideas/tools for communication?
By the way - I am not saying that your beliefs are wrong (although all our beliefs are somewhat at odds with reality) - for example, regarding your story about the development of human psychology on the other thread - they may well resemble certain theories considered correct at some point in the history of science - and I do think that the concept of cause and effect can be very useful.
It’s a fact. But it’s not useful for our discussion, which is about our psyche
Brother, please we are not talking about theories or stories. You are so much stuck in correct/incorrect, to accept/not accept. It may be or may not be. We don’t know. But we have to find out that. To find out that, we have to observe. You are ready to see it, right? then just try this, and place in the table what you see. Then lets discuss from there.
Why do you think so?
Well it is useful in a practical sense - but mainly I was just saying that to signify that I was able to follow your narrative regarding human psychological development.
@caviswa_gmail_com Can we have a pause for a moment in this rather hectic discussion? Instead of proposing a load of “facts” in order to back up what we are trying to say, may I suggest a different tactic?
It goes like this: We each pose one question that will help the other see what we want them to consider - is this okay with you? Would you like to try that?
We ask one question - which we think is the most important question in this discussion we are having (on both threads) and that might help the other understand what we are pointing at - and then we stop talking until tomorrow. Agreed?
Sure. I agree. But please, I put forth an ‘activity/help’ before you, about to observe how an year old baby/teenage boy acts in the society. Just try to see it. It is highly needed to continue, or else we may just answer the questions and raise another verbally - which only consumes time.
Edit - Attachment.
Yes, so could we rather stay with the question, or at least consider any instinctive answer that may arise (ie. does it stand up to scrutiny, can it easily be shown to be wrong etc)
You have something essential for me to consider about children before we continue? nb. I have a 20 year old son in reality - what do want me to do? Reconsider your narrative concerning teenage acts in society?
I’ve just reread it - I think we may continue - please don’t worry my question will hopefully be related to our discussion
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So my question - in response to all that you are telling me is :
If I am deluded (ie. my perception/interpretation is clouded by the self/known)
If I am deluded, how can I observe the truth? (as in the truth that will set me free)
No we can’t play safe while we enquire. If so, the thoughts/ideas/beliefs tricks us.
I’m just 23 from India. 
Just sit with him. If he is in a mood to speak with you, ask him “what does he ‘learned’ (i.e. how to be and how to not be) from the society, friends, teachers and parents, what is his ‘goal/desire/pain/sufferings’ in his life, what he thinks about ‘Life & Love’”. His reply may be against you. If it is, don’t react. Just hear it as a third person. Then we can discuss about the answers/replies he made.