Does care activate receptivity in the unconscious of another?

[James]

@crina

could it be…that the " unconscious meditation" is none of the 3 kinds ? The unconscious meditation is the …unknown ?

If we are talking about what happened to K in Ojai or on his walks, then yes, probably. It may possibly be an extension of the second kind of awareness, but at a much ‘deeper’ or ‘wider’ level - a different dimension of consciousness.

Remember that K sometimes said that meditation is the emptying of the contents of consciousness. And when the contents of consciousness have been emptied he said there is a completely different kind of consciousness.

This ‘completely different kind of consciousness’ is unknown (and, according to K, unknowable to thought).

[James]

But just to clarify - I don’t take K to have meant that we must all somehow acquire the peculiar mysterious state of consciousness he was able to access in order to meditate! That would be ridiculous!

His experiences of (what we might term) ‘divine unconsciousness’ were clearly related to his mysterious “process” (which he implied was a phenomenon almost completely exclusive to him).

Wheres when he discusses ‘unconscious meditation’ he does so in the context of intending it to be something for anyone who cares about these matters.

[crina]

I agree
I don’t take any understanding we share here as being absolutely true, I take lightly everything that is said, described…and to be honest I forget what you or I just said
I am not certain of anything

[Adeen]

@DeNiro

Crina, it makes me ask what percentage of our life is actually run by the unconscious?

It depends on how addicted you are to thought.
Those people who live closer to nature and do physical work, probably they are more aware.

[Adeen]

@James

From my understanding K used the word ‘unconscious’ in at least 3 different ways:

1. as contents of consciousness of which the superficially conscious mind is unaware (but that can be exposed to the mind through holistic awareness);
2. as an awareness (whether of the body or the mind) that is still active in the background of experience, despite conscious thought (which smothers awareness) having taken up a dominant role in the foreground;
3. and as the unconscious that psychoanalysts traditionally theorise about and that K often questioned and criticised.

Unconscious according to K I feel is that which has nothing to do with memory. That which is not conscious, meaning it does not leave a mark.

Awareness has nothing to do with memory and so is not consciousness with self, but without self, without psychological mark as me

K did not accept that there is anything such as subconscious. There is only unawareness which is consciousness, that is self, and awareness which is not self

[jmelo]

@DeNiro

In that way you penetrate very, very deeply into my unconscious.

Regarding the K-quote posted by you, DeNiro, on the effect of care on the subconscious:

Can we explore the opposites of care: negligence, insensitivity, or even deliberate aggression, and their accompanying rationalizations; and consider that care is the recognition of the things that aren’t care.

I’m sensing the issues I’d rather avoid, regardless of intention or degree of visibility: the subtle, the harmful, the insidious effects of my criticisms and behaviors coming out of reaction to you and to even of myself. Do I care enough to be sensitive to the subtle, reactive avoidances of messages that oppose my self-images? to my own realizations in contradiction to what I prefer to think? And how far am I consciously and subconsciously willing to go to counter the threats?

Most of the time, the unconscious willingness is not fully unconscious. There’s an inkling of the hypocrisy that I don’t want to pay attention to. But I can’t help it. It’s too late. The cat’s out of the bag. I’ve noticed it now and can no longer ignore the subtleties, and that we’re all doing this and we really are swimming in it together, aren’t we? There’s an urge to resist seeing what I see. But I can’t pretend not to see any more. I’m responsible.

This is one of the ways to glimpse the oneness of anything we talk about; for example, the one human consciousness. Human consciousness is so very complexly interconnected; it’s just one big soup. But is interconnectedness the right description? because that implies separateness of parts. It’s just one big one, isn’t it?

We can’t effectively change or repress our insidious, destructive effects directly because if we do, they’re probably just going to find another way to leak out. Is this because something essential hasn’t been seen? But when the essentials are clearly seen and understood, why wouldn’t anyone just let go of harmful behaviors and drop them. That’s what ending is, isn’t it?

I don’t know what unconscious meditation or such things are; but I do see the value of exploring exactly what our deeper layers are up to; and to do this through looking at whatever noise the thinking mind is mustering up seems a worthy usage of energy. In fact, it’s the noise that’s giving all the clues as to what’s going on below. Maybe we just can’t see the root directly. Maybe it’s in the reflections. It’s not just about purity of listening and watching, it’s more about realizing the subtle movement of effects rippling in and out, or crashing in and out, whatever the case; about caring enough to take on being aware of this. That’s a heavy responsibility. I mean caring in the full sense of the word. I mean caring about you and me and everybody and everything all the time. What is that care? even right now this very moment of our participating with each other here?

[O7007]

Krishnamurti friends unfortunately escape from what happens in the world with Putin and Hamas which are the same ideological movement of thought. They just philosophies about the unconscious . But k said that the unconscious and the consciousness are one thing.

[Inquiry]

@jmelo

Do I care enough to be sensitive to the subtle, reactive avoidances of messages that oppose my self-images? to my own realizations in contradiction to what I prefer to think? And how far am I consciously and subconsciously willing to go to counter the threats?

I read this three times and I’m not sure what you’re saying. What messages? What threats? Please clarify?

There’s an urge to resist seeing what I see. But I can’t pretend not to see any more. I’m responsible.

Do you mean there was an urge, and now there isn’t? I ask because if the urge is still there, you’re conflicted about pretending not to see anymore. You say “I’m responsible”, but how responsible can I be when in conflict with myself?

[jmelo]

Ok I’ll create an example. I’m talking to someone and get this little uneasy feeling they’re insinuating I’m irresponsible. A message like that. But the message is subtle, might not even be there, it might just be a mistaken assumption on my part, but there was a little twinge of embarrassment, hardly even noticed, not noticed at all if I’m not paying attention. But then I notice I’m speaking in a defensive voice. We are very good at ignoring these little challenges to self-image, but the subconscious knows, and acts spontaneously to defend against them. I’ll rationalize, pretend, defend, accuse the other person, cover up, whatever…. a knee-jerk reaction I hardly seem to have any control over. If the reaction is stronger, I might even hurl a sharp insult at your most vulnerable spot.

Never mind there’s any truth to it, this insinuation is interpreted as a threat to the self-image of being responsible.

But now something changes. Without judging I’m looking not at what I think I’m being accused of, but the reaction which prevents my looking at what’s really going on and asking what’s going on here.

Once this has been observed, and I come to understand this is what I do, this is what we all do, don’t I have, if nothing else, a responsibility to pay attention to it? because the way I react to what’s happening to me is affecting what I’m delivering to the world.