Dead K Society

Kinfonet Discussion
203

Don’t be silly Rick! - it’s not a matter of upsetting anyone. I merely communicated what I felt, that’s all. You have been communicating what you feel. There is no disrespect in sharing our feelings.

This issue I have with you is that your “unrelenting negation” (as you put it) may be a little self-serving. Why do I say this? Because you clearly have your own beliefs, ideas, opinions, and yet you are generally not forthcoming in plainly articulating them. Do you see the imbalance here?

It is more clear, for instance, where someone like myself is coming from, because I am openly interested in K. But your views are encircled with an opaque mist. You never share them openly, explicitly, or at length - and on the few occasions where you have done you seem to be uninterested in examining them through reason or logic - so it isn’t easy to get to grips with where you are coming from.

But here you have an opportunity to say whatever you want to. The teachers and professors are all asleep. So, as this is anyone’s thread, not just James’ or anyone else’s, what would you like to discuss? As you are not particularly interested in the things I have shared here on this thread, what would you like to look at, talk about, explore together?

If I may request it, don’t just disappear from here - engage, be transparent, open. This is all I ask of people, and what I am trying to be with you too.

As you said,

So you have a chance to bring your own interest, your own topic, your own slant, into this candlelit cave in the woods.

What concerns you the most?

204

Yes. Douglas also pointed this out a few days ago, the danger of having a strong worldview turn into a self-dogma. It’s another form of authoritarianism, reliance on an internalized authority, no matter how right that authority might be. It can be argued that everything you think, perhaps even feel, is a kind of internalized authority. If you were interested in becoming free of authority (an interest that would probably come from internalized authority!), thought would probably not be the proper tool. Ditto (maybe) for feeling and intuition.

205

So what is your deepest interest Rick? It can’t just be to negate everything people say here, right? The most I’ve ever got from you in a year or so of conversing here is that ‘everything is a story’, as well as ‘everything is an illusion’, along with ‘Me is the most important thing’. I don’t think I’m mischaracterising what you’ve said, right? These three statements are as near to your own view that I’ve managed to discover. So either I am a very poor sleuth, or you have been less than forthcoming, right? (or some combination of the two!).

I care about climate change, war, authoritarianism, poverty, the collective ignorance that is destroying the planet, destroying ecosystems, destroying biodiversity, destroying human beings. I have said all this time and time again, but I don’t detect any comparable feeling in you. You seem genuinely chilled about the objective tragedy in the world. So we can’t talk about that.

I also care about myself, naturally. I don’t want to suffer or be in conflict, and yet I suffer and am in conflict. So we could talk about that. But again, I don’t sense that you are really interested in resolving or dealing with suffering. Your life situation is, for the time being, balanced, adjusted, so you don’t feel particularly strongly about psychological suffering or psychological conflict.

So where does that leave us? ‘The emptiness of all views’? Is that what interests you, or what you would like to talk about? Or maybe one of the three views of yours I have detected over the last year (i.e. ‘stories’, ‘illusion’, ‘Me’)?

Or shall we talk about the place of feelings in inquiry?

I’m happy to talk about anything, as long as it is a central issue for you, a central (rather than a peripheral) concern. What do you say?

206

Interesting quote.

When one needs to find out what is actual (not merely intellectual), and realizes the futility of trying to “figure it out” or “get it”, there’s nothing to do but conserve energy.

207

I’m usually happy sharing personal things. But some things I keep for myself. My deepest interests, for example. I’m just not comfortable sharing these things, especially not in a public forum, they’re between me and the universe. Hope you are okay with that.

Or shall we talk about the place of feelings in inquiry?

How we Kinfonet members relate and communicate with each other would interest me more.

208

Yes a good friend used to quote this a lot, I picked it up from him.

209

Well, that closes a great many doors Rick. So perhaps when other people share their deepest interests you might be more respectful of that, seeing as you can now see how it takes courage to make oneself open to scrutiny?

Sure. We can go with that, I’m game.

210

Begin tomorrow? I need a Kinfonet break! :slight_smile:

211

I agree with James here, about that it closes many doors. But I respect Ricks freedom to be like this, to be very private. He seems one of the most private individuals I met. His very profile is hidden, when I click on it it says : “This users public profile is hidden.” I was surprised to see that and find that odd.

I do find Rick to be an enigma. He seems to be either a fully enlightened being who is only letting us see a little of himself, hiding his true identity and wisdom and enlightenment or he is a pretty private, neurotic individual or somewhere in between.

He is very likeable and personable and has a lot to offer, and is in complete control of what he shares and discusses. Control seems very important to him.

I do respect greatly his integrity to sticking to what he is only willing to share, but at the same time it is frustrating on a online forum, makes conversation difficult, it can only go so far.

I have been accused by someone in a dialogue group of not saying enough, of holding back. They said “Why do you even come to the dialogues if you arent going to speak and share?” It is indeed a valid question and I see both sides to that. And I see both sides to Ricks participation here too.

212

The idea of not being able to share what I feel, I find rather sad. Is this to do with fear and pride? Is that why we cut ourselves off from others?
If its about sex, drugs and guns, there are forums for that kind of stuff.

One reason I hold back is for fear of offending. Unfortunately, I also like saying silly stuff - so relationship is a balancing act.

Do you feel like you’re holding back @DavidS ?

213

Yes I dont want to offend or hurt anyone either. My latest post about Rick, for example, is all said in respect and affection for him, I hope it is not taken in any wrong way. This is the limitation of words, and this forum. If we could be talking face to face he would know I am just interested and inquiring and I mean no harm with my comments or questions.

It is indeed a balancing act Douglas, and I too like to joke and say silly stuff. In real life dialogues it hasnt gone over too well my sense of humor. Most just stare at me and dont find it funny or get it. I have a dry sense of humor and some just dont get that.

No, for the most part I dont feel like I am holding back. In fact, I have posted too much at times or spoke too much in some dialogue groups. I am pretty open in my sharing.

214

Definitely not enlightened. Definitely neurotic, though probably less than when I was a kid. Private in some ways, very open in others. All in all, and as much as I might not like to admit it, a pretty normal (if eccentric) member of the human species.

I’m glad you’re okay with my holding back in certain situations. Gotta respect boundaries, right?

215

I think I miscommunicated. I happily and frequently share things here that interest me a great deal, that’s why I keep starting new threads like Musings. What I’m not comfortable doing is ‘defining’ myself by listing my top interests. I’m an ever-changing process, what interests me deeply one day might leave me cold the next.

In other words, the doors are still open, I just won’t specify ‘exactly’ what they open to!

216

Thanks Rick. Yes of course, I respect your boundaries and you holding back in certain situations. I accept you as you are. And you are perfect as you are. I think I get you, as much as one could from the limited information you have shared here. Much respect to you and I honor all of your contributions here and great threads (You started a lot of good threads, good questions that many jumped in and responded to).

217

Heres a short little poem by Poet and Mystic William Blake titled “Eternity” that might speak to us K folk:

He who binds to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy.
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity’s sun rise.

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218

Krishnamurti loved nature and taught us the importance of relationship with nature.

So one more poem for us K folk:

Daffodils
by William Wordsworth

I wandered lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o’er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden daffodils;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze.

Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the milky way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.

The waves beside them danced, but they
Out-did the sparkling waves in glee:
A poet could not be but gay,
In such a jocund company:
I gazed’and gazed’but little thought
What wealth the show to me had brought:

For oft, when on my couch I lie
In vacant or in pensive mood,
They flash upon that inward eye
Which is the bliss of solitude;
And then my heart with pleasure fills,
And dances with the daffodils.

Summary of Daffodils

The poem was composed in the year 1802. The title of the poem informs about the loneliness of the poet which he faces after the death of his brother. However, the endless view of the golden daffodils in a field across the lake filled him with joy. This view was the greatest gift of nature to him.

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219

Is there something about the Teachings’ laser focus of the sorrow of authority that encourages trolling? Is K being misinterpreted as advocating anarchy? Anything goes? Everyone’s point of view is valid since truth cannot be held? That the celebration of freedom is the same as the celebration of myself? (No offense, Walt).

Does this kind of thing happen on say, Buddhist forums - that ppl proudly strut their oblique interest in Buddhism without reservation? Would that not be the height of disrespect?

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220

K: What else would you like to talk about? Do any of you write poems?

A: Yes.

K: Yes?

A: Yes, sir.

K: Oh, I’m glad. Do any of you read English poems?

A: Yes.

K: Yes? Which do you like? Who is the poet you like most?

Q: Wordsworth.

K: Wordsworth. Which poem do you know of Wordsworth? I am not cross-examining you, this is not examination. Have you read Wordsworth’s poem on Immortality?

Q: We’ve read the Daffodils.

K: Oh, the thousands daffodils by the lakeside. Oh, you know? Good. Whom else do you know?

Q: Robert Louis Stevenson.

K: Oh, Robert Louis Stevenson. Have you read his Treasure Island?

A: Yes.

K: Aha. (Laughter) I read that book three times. Have you read Huckleberry Finn?

A: Yes, sir.

K: Yes? Do you like it?

A: Yes.

K: So do I. (Laughs) Have you read - who else is another poet? - Keats.

A: Yes.

Q: John Keats.

K: Keats. Which poems do you like of Keats?

Q: Naughty Boy. Ode to a Nightingale.

K: Ode to a Nightingale! My heart aches, drowsy numbness - you know it? If you have read it you must know it! All right. What else have you read? Do you read any novels?

A: Yes, sir.

K: Which ones?

Q: Enid Blyton.

K: Who?

Q: Enid Blyton. She writes about children.

K: Oh (laughs) I don’t. (Laughter) Have you read the old Bible? I am not a Christian, I am not a Christian, I read books, I read the Old Testament, because it has beautiful language, very simple, very clear, beautiful words they use. You should read that, the Old Testament. What else?

K School (Students) Discussion 1 Rajghat, India - 17 November 1981
…

And here is a extract from a article that highlights Ks appreciation for John Keats poem:

Beauty is truth, truth beauty—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

These lines are from J. Krishnamurti’s favourite poet John Keats’ Ode to a Grecian Urn. The poem weaves together several ideas deriving from the classical Greek philosopher Plato: that beauty and truth are the highest values human beings can aspire to; that beauty and truth satisfy basic human needs; and that truth and beauty form a unity. Plato’s themes emerged in the context of a debate with the Sophists, the most prominent among whom proclaimed that there was no absolute truth: ‘Of all things the measure is man: of existing things, that they exist; of nonexistent things, that they do not exist.’ Under this view, the human mind imposes standards of truth and falsity, and these standards are relative. In challenging the Sophists, Plato extended the debate regarding truth to areas of knowledge, justice, education and virtue. How should a man live, what should he know and what are his responsibilities to the state? These connected questions entered the ancient debate in the philosopher’s writing.

The quotation from Keats helps to illumine Krishnamurti’s philosophical position and identify themes that run through this article on the teaching of history in Krishnamurti Schools. Lest it be felt that the nineteenth century Keats and his classical background described above have no bearing on our present concerns, I would bring to your attention the fact that we find Keats’ identity between beauty and truth repeated endlessly, sometimes verbatim, in Krishnamurti’s talks. In addition, Krishnamurti often in his writings argues against Protagorus’ famous dictum that man is the measure of all things. Krishnamurti asserts that ‘truth’ is independent of the human imagination. His idea of the good human being flows into the larger issues of the place of beauty in a life well lived, and into the arena of political concepts such as nationalism and the state. An echo of Keats rings through several of his most striking talks… From a article Issues in the Teaching of History: Lessons from Krishnamurti by Radhika Herzberger
…

221

IMO, K would turn over in his grave if he heard this statement.

222

Please forgive me, but I am totally baffled by this post. I have no idea why you said what you said. Can you say more why K would turn over in his grave if he heard this. Please elaborate, otherwise I have no clue what you are talking about. Thanks

edit: I read and re-read what I wrote and the only thing I can think that Emile is having a problem with is my usage of the word “Taught”. That I said K taught us… If this is what his beef is with me, come on man, this is getting ridiculous imo, focusing on one word and getting bent out of shape over it. Substitute a different word if you dont like the word taught. K SPOKE about the importance of relationship with nature. Is that better? Please reread what James wrote in the first post of this thread, this is a safe space to share and not have to deal with these kind of silly annoying K police kind of things!