Isolation is the fact. Nothing I can do will end that situation. Maybe I thought in the past that there was something that I could do, learn, that would be ‘freeing’…but do I want a freedom where there is no choosing, no judging, etc, that is what gives me the sense that I’m in ‘control’: “I like her and hate him “. But there is the sense that to remain in this isolation is wrong, limited, incomplete somehow. It is not living fully. And there can be no gradual chipping away of the ‘prison wall’. So how does it end? Without effort or will or method? It has to be with the perception of the totality of the isolation in each moment? In whatever relationship one finds oneself, in nature, with others or with ideas, etc. That perception, or attention or awareness is the only thing that can bring the movement of psychological thought to a stop?
But I am the product of all my relationships. That’s what I am. Psychologically, I am only ever hurt in relationship. Physically, that’s a different matter, but we are talking about the psyche, the self. Where else does the self arise except in its relationships with other people? That’s its whole arena. How else would you get hurt except in relationship?
Why don’t you love me? Work it out.
Question your obsession with togetherness.
I am doing it now. I say it is not an obsession. I may be wrong. So show me why it is an obsession. Draw it out.
You can see it for yourself, if you dare. Review everything you’ve said in this forum from the beginning and you’ll see that togetherness in dialogue is all you’re really interested in. Along with this, your constant mention of love indicates that you’re lonely and seeking solace and connection in this forum.
The Buddha said, “Love is like licking honey off a razor.”
No, sir. That is all your version of events. I am not lonely and I am not in search of solace. What is love? It is not pleasure; and you are equating it with pleasure.
I don’t presume to know what love is, and I doubt very much that you know what love is. As I said earlier, if you know what love is, tell us all about it. Take the time and the trouble to make it clear that you know what you’re talking about, or quit alluding to your alleged knowledge of what love is.
This is very different from the way I understand the ‘self’ Paul or anyone and I wonder if we can clarify it. I have been thinking about it along the line that K pointed out , that the self arises when thought identifies with sensations, the senses…I don’t say that I fully understand that but it points at it being present not just in relation to people but to nature, to ideas, etc. I understand it as making up the totality of our consciousness…the self is our consciousness…our ‘isolation’. It is the ‘me and mine’ Any clarifications?
In solitude. You don’t need other people to form an image of yourself and relate to it as if it’s real. As you know, people get lonely, and they’ll settle for online relationships…even when they’re relating to a program impersonating a human.
Yes…the totality of consciousness. When the me is absent, consciousness as we know it is gone. There’s a different dimension of being. And as Inquiry points out the self can arise in ‘me’ in isolation from other people. sitting worrying about something my girlfriend or spouse said to me is obviously the ‘me’. She need not be present. Or thinking about becoming a star athlete or a famous musician is the action of the ‘me’. No others need be present.
Do we know this or is it speculation? Something will have changed when the self isn’t the center, but it’s unimaginable.
I know what it is not. I can talk about that until the cows come home. What’s the point? Would you listen? So what is it? Nobody knows. Therefore we are supremely free to find out.
You are missing the beauty of it. Love is not within the field of knowledge. Psychologically, knowledge brings nothing but conflict and destruction; and we have lived for too long as divided human beings. There is a different field or dimension of existence when one abandons inwardly everything to do with knowledge.
Isolation and loneliness are formed in the crucible of family. Society through its schooling, training, emphasis on success and achievement, reinforces all this. These feelings don’t exist in a vacuum. That’s all. I am not spinning a complicated theory.
But you are still thinking in terms of other people even when they are not there: my emotions, my status, my desire for fame - none of these things have meaning outside of relationship.
I want to become a star athlete because I can be rich. It’s based upon the desire for financial security, no? Desire for pleasure is the self too. It has nothing to do with relationships. Or does it? Not sure. I’m hurt in relationship and I cover up that hurt by overeating…or smoking or drinking…addictions…and/or pursuit of pleasure
The point is that if you know something your readers do not know, you should inform them. I don’t think you know any more about what love is not than you know about what it is. Prove me wrong.
That’s only because I do something that pleases you. I am gratifying your needs. That’s still not love. Today you are warm towards me and yet tomorrow you may freeze me out when I start to sound like a windbag. And I am very good at sounding like a windbag. You don’t love me. When you say that, what does the word ‘love’ actually mean to you? How are you using this word?
I have no desire to prove you wrong, or right, or anything else. What is love? You tell me. When you hear this word, what does it mean to you?
A couple of days ago I told you that I don’t presume to know what love is.
You have implied that you know what love is, stated that you know what love is not, and now you’re asking me to tell you what love is. Why not just admit that you know nothing about love? You’ve already admitted to being self-centered, so why pretend to know anything about love or what it is not? Like all the rest of us self-centered beings, you know nothing but fear and desire, craving and aversion, and possibly (hopefully) the presence of mind to realize this.
Then we are free to find out what it is. That is all I am saying. When we wipe away all that it is not, the actuality of it is there. But if we take time to wipe away all those things that love is not - pleasure, desire, jealousy, envy, and all the rest of it - we’ll never come upon the real thing because we’re always chasing an idea. Time is the denial of love; it doesn’t come gradually or even quickly. It is possible to see the truth of this in a flash. And without love we are not fully human. This too can be seen in a flash.