Actual Suffering

“I” don’t “have” to do anything. If you are looking for definitions look into some dictionaries of your choice. Here it is assumed we are normal people well acquainted with suffering. If you are looking for an academic debate on philosophy you might want to look elsewhere.

You assume something that you are not certain about. Otherwise there is no need for assumptions at all.

It’s quite amazing we would need a definition for sorrow. Listening to people, not one or two, but hundreds, talking and asking questions about suffering, one is amazed how confused we are about this thing which is the bedrock of our existence. Sorrow and suffering permeates every cell (physical or otherwise) of not only our own being but that of the cosmos. Have we become this insensitive and dull? Our capacity to perceive, feel, articulate, gone? Which means what, that we have never felt joy? Sorrow is joy. Joy is the hidden jewel. It’s absolutely amazing. In any case let’s defer to K for a minute:

What is your sorrow? Don’t answer it to me. Can you find out what your sorrow is? Is it loneliness? Is it that you have not been able to identify yourself with something or other? Is it that you have lost somebody whom you loved, or had a great affection, or companionship? Is it that you cannot have the power, the position, the prestige of someone who has? Please examine all this for yourself. Is it that you want happiness and you can’t have it? You want to be loved and nobody loves you? Sir, you understand? Is it that you want to achieve some extraordinary status and you know that you have not the capacity, the brains, the essential activity, and you cry?

If you walk down the road, you will see the splendour of nature, the extraordinary beauty of the green fields and the open skies; and you will hear the laughter of children. But in spite of all that, there is a sense of sorrow. There is the anguish of a woman bearing a child; there is sorrow in death; there is sorrow when you are looking forward to something, and it does not happen; there is sorrow when a nation runs down, goes to seed; and there is the sorrow of corruption, not only in the collective, but also in the individual. There is sorrow in your own house, if you look deeply -the sorrow of not being able to fulfill, the sorrow of your own pettiness or incapacity, and various unconscious sorrows.
There is also laughter in life. Laughter is a lovely thing, to laugh without reason, to have joy in one’s heart without cause, to love without seeking anything in return. But such laughter rarely happens to us. We are burdened with sorrow; our life is a process of misery and strife, a continuous disintegration, and we almost never know what it is to love with our whole being.

So one questions if age has anything to do with the lack of perception, but that doesn’t seem to be the case as this lack of clarity is also observed in those who are advanced in years.

Humanity’s entire life revolves around attempts to escape from sorrow and suffering, yet we lack familiarity with it. Absolutely amazing.

The sorrow that everything is moving in entropy and towards disintegration-death. We, this unit with all it’s rich experiences, will cease to see the splendor of nature, the extraordinary beauty of the green fields and the open skies; the laughter of children. This unit will cease to feel sorrow-joy…what a sorrow!

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Not under any definition of sorrow/suffering that I am aware of. Would you care to help me out here?

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Regarding your awareness, yes, that seems right.

Not particularly. But don’t let that stop you from being a light to yourself.

Krishnamurti: Self-pity is one of the elements of sorrow. Another element is being attached to someone and encouraging or fostering his attachment to you. Sorrow is not only there when attachment fails you but its seed is in the very beginning of that attachment. In all this the trouble is the utter lack of knowing oneself. Knowing oneself is the ending of sorrow. We are afraid to know ourselves because we have divided ourselves into the good and the bad, the evil and the noble, the pure and the impure. The good is always judging the bad, and these fragments are at war with each other.

This war is sorrow. To end sorrow is to see the fact and not invent its opposite, for the opposites contain each other. Walking in this corridor of opposites is sorrow. This fragmentation of life into the high and the low, the noble and the ignoble, God and the Devil, breeds conflict and pain. When there is sorrow, there is no love. Love and sorrow cannot live together.

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Without as much as a second glance at the post above,

One questions, what’s the nature of this sorrow that K compared to a precious jewel? Why was he so emphatic we remain with it? This question will only come from one who is unfamiliar with sorrow.

What is sorrow if not the waters of conscious life? What is it if not the fountain head of energy and passion?

@anon46701211
I am not sure why you deleted the post, it was a good one and i was going to respond. Perhaps you would have appreciated it.

Therefore, I am not going to respond to everything you had asked but will make a brief note. “as if” is make believe. The question of making oneself believe something is precious doesn’t arise when the preciousness of the jewel is established. Either by looking at the declared value or by an appraisal. Once the value is established there is no need for an “as if”. One will ensure it’s safety and en-joy it, if they feel upto it. Thanks for that post.

@anon34287404
Sorry. English is not my first language and after answering your post, I read your post again and I thought that I maybe have misunderstood your point. I don’t remember much of what I wrote. But you say as if is make believe. If I understand well, I probably said that K. use an analogy about sorrow and a precious jewel. Of course it is an analogy to say how important it is . One doesn’t need to believe when one see something clearly. When we peceive , in a moment when it arise, a mouvement of envy, the fact of being aware of it make it intensely precious. Seeing this jewel , being aware of it when it arise without escaping it, or trying to rationalise it , or condam it or any mouvement, is seeing what is in the moment. And because we are aware of it, it is a jewel, it is precious. But are we at all aware of those mouvements of our mind in day to day life , when it arise ?

Richard,

It isn’t only K that has pointed it out, but it has also been pointed out by highly credible ‘telephones’ over thousands of years. It isn’t simply an analogy. Sorrow is literally the most precious thing one has when it comes to returning home.

Contrary to what you say, our awareness of sorrow doesn’t give it any value, but by virtue of us being aware of it, we gain some value. Without sorrow we are perennially valueless. Not sure if this is making any sense, but if not just leave it be.

@anon34287404

I wouldn’t say that it doesn’t make any sense. But I would question what you say, if I may. You say that sorrow is literally the most precious thing one has when it comes to returning home. May I ask you what you mean by returning home ? And you also say :

Who is we in we gain value?

If you don’t understand it then i am not going to explain it, sorry.

We is Richard, Probatio Daiabolica, X, Y, or Z. The person.

Well , I will leave it at that :slightly_smiling_face:.

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Krishnamurti: Self-pity is one of the elements of sorrow. Another element is being attached to someone and encouraging or fostering his attachment to you.

Glorification of self-pity and attachment does not lead to understanding.

Examiner Viswa

Yes, you have quoted K above. Now you are repeating that quote.

See, to cover one’s personal mental issues, which is part of one’s sorrow, one goes quickly to do a word search and find a K quote that actually describes one’s own disorders. Does one see K is talking about you, of your kind, which is humanity? Perhaps this is why K always said “we are second hand humans”, parrots. Always repeating from memory what we have stolen form others.

You are ignoring what krishnamurti said. You glorify sorrow like millions of Christians do all over the world. Now who is imitating who? Who is driven by ignorance?

Everything said in this thread can be easily substantiated by simple online searches of K teachings. Everything.

You are quite right, i am ignorant and will prefer my unknowing-ness. I ask that you take your “knowledge” elsewhere. Which means you aren’t welcome to post to me. Let this be a notice to you.I have been trolled by people much better than you You are still learning. My condolences.

Edit: Editing this post because of a comment not seen, earlier.

No, I was ignoring your baits, not K.

I hope that you understand that you are of no importance to anybody in this krishnamurti site. So stop nagging.